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Jack H. Super Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2007 Posts: 346 Location: Israel
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Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:31 am Post subject: Cleats on the back of a cello |
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Just repaired a few cracks on a cello back and I was wondering what would be the best wood to reinforce them with. In the past I have always used spruce, but I was wondering if maple would be better or not. Seems that maple would not be flexible enough, but....Please insert your knowlegeable opinion.
thanks.
Jack Havivi
Havivi Violins
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Michael Darnton Moderator
Joined: 23 Mar 2007 Posts: 1281 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:39 am Post subject: |
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At B&F we used spruce on spruce, and willow on everything else. These days I just use spruce. I don't really have much faith in studs, anyway--a little pad of thin wood on a big long hole in wood that's thicker than the stud? Doesn't really seem like enough for me, and so I often leave them off. It seems like if the crack isn't glued well enough to stay closed, that's the problem to deal with, not the little slip of voodoo wood you put behind it. _________________ new blog at my site! http://darntonviolins.com/blog
my work sites: http://darntonviolins.com and http://darntonhersh.com |
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Mat Roop Senior Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2007 Posts: 911 Location: Wyoming Ontario
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Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:38 am Post subject: |
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Michael, I understand your comment on the futility of cleats, but if you are putting cleats in, why would it not be appropriate to use cleats of the same material... eg.. maple on maple?
Thanks, Mat |
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Jack H. Super Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2007 Posts: 346 Location: Israel
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Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:28 am Post subject: |
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For me, the cleats are there just to hold things together in case of further damage to the area after the instrument is returned. Just wondering. Gonna keep it with the spruce. |
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Michael Darnton Moderator
Joined: 23 Mar 2007 Posts: 1281 Location: Chicago
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Oded Kishony Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2008 Posts: 100 Location: Central Virginia
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Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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Try cleating a crack before gluing, you'll find the crack is very solid without the glue. The cleats give a lot of support to the crack.
Oded Kishony |
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Mat Roop Senior Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2007 Posts: 911 Location: Wyoming Ontario
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Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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Oded Kishony wrote: | ....The cleats give a lot of support to the crack.... |
.... and the cleats change the tone of the instrument!
I found that out the hard way when the customer called to complain bitterly that the instrument did not sound the same anymore ... she had been playing it with a full crack in the lower bout from edge to the f hole!.
My strategy now is generally no cleats on violins and minimal and very thin cleats on cellos... if the crack is long.
Cheers!... Mat |
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Oded Kishony Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2008 Posts: 100 Location: Central Virginia
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Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | and the cleats change the tone of the instrument!
I found that out the hard way when the customer called to complain bitterly that the instrument did not sound the same anymore ... she had been playing it with a full crack in the lower bout from edge to the f hole!. |
something is wrong with this picture. you removed the cleats and the violin sounded like it did with an open crack?
The tone of the instrument changed from what? from an instrument with an open crack?
If your cleats noticeably change the tone of the instrument then there's something wrong with your cleats. And I can prove it!
Oded Kishony |
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Mat Roop Senior Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2007 Posts: 911 Location: Wyoming Ontario
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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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Oded... I meant to say adding cleats changes the tone...trying to write too quickly... sorry.
The client had been playing the cello (apparently for quite some time)with the top split in several places, including some areas separated at the ribs.
After I repaired the splits with new cleats and set the open seams, the tone changed (according to the client).
Seems to make sense to me as the cleats add weight to the top and the cello was no longer "loose". Mind you, there were probably 20 cleats, maybe more. Also, the player was a high school student, and who knows what quality of sound the student liked.
lastly a question on your last comment.... How do you prove a change in tone... I work mostly on violins and I find tone a somewhat subjective subject, and trying to remember what the tone was like a few days or a week later is tough... for me anyway, unless of course, the change is significant.
Thanks... Mat |
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Oded Kishony Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2008 Posts: 100 Location: Central Virginia
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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | After I repaired the splits with new cleats and set the open seams, the tone changed (according to the client). |
I'm quite certain that the reason for the change of tone was closing the crack rather than adding the cleats.
(if I'm understanding the sequence of what happened-did you remove the cleats in the end or leave them on?)
Quote: | lastly a question on your last comment.... How do you prove a change in tone.. |
This has to do with an experimental violin called "gluey" that I worked on at the Oberlin Acoustics workshop with Sam Z. and Wendy Moes.
The experimental part has to do with making strips of wood with rosin on one side. by cutting short strips and heating one side you can instantly affix a "cleat" onto the surface of the experimental violin and listen for any changes. You can then remove the 'cleats' and listen again.
In 99% of cases having a series of cleats lined up will not have a noticeable change in sound. There are just a few 'hot spots' that have a strong effect on the sound-often a positive change-more volume or richer sound.
Oded |
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gavin_rossdale Junior Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2012 Posts: 14
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Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:38 am Post subject: |
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spruce would do great!! My music teacher taught me this back to the time when i was studying how to play the violin.. |
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