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Mat Roop Senior Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2007 Posts: 911 Location: Wyoming Ontario
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Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 11:01 pm Post subject: Finish restoration |
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I need to restore a violin (not excatly high end!) but it has significant sentimantal value to the owner. I will need to reset the neck, new bridge, post and maybe fb....but my request for advice is on the finish restoration...as you can see from the picture a significant amount of finish has been lost in the bridge area. as well as lesser areas at the corners and bouts... What is the best way to blend the edge thickness of the old spirit varnish to new so that the transition of old finish to new is not visible.
Thnaks, Mat
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Jack H. Super Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2007 Posts: 346 Location: Israel
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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:06 am Post subject: |
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Fill the area with varnish and let dry.
It is ok to get some new varnish on th eold. Scrape it down when it is dry and then use some micromesh to smooth it out and then a nice french polish.
varnish under the bridge feet can be problematic, with the varnish not dry enough to take the pressure, the varnish sticking to the feet or a not smooth finishing will make it harder to fit the bridge.
Sometimes I leave chalk on the feet so that the varnish will not stick to the bridge feet.
good luck.
Jack Havivi |
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Jeffrey Holmes Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2007 Posts: 90 Location: Ann Arbor
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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:47 am Post subject: |
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Hi Mat;
The trick for touching in large areas convincingly is to build up the coating thickness to meet the existing varnish level as well as match the color and reflective nature and texture of the original finish with as little manipulation as possible.
Make sure the area to be touched in is free of dirt, rosin or anything else (others attempts to darken the wood, etc.) that will affect the surface reflectivity. It's a good idea to lightly seal any open wood (in case your first attempt fails... you'll be able to remove the touchup). Match the ground over the sealer coat. Sharp or lifted (chipped) edges of the original varnish need to be (very lightly!) feathered, or re-attached (by use of solvents).
In order to determine how intense to make your varnish color, and which varnish/pigments/dyes to use (those choices will effect clarity/opacity), you may want to run some "tests". If you place some plastic wrap over the area to be touched in and apply your colored varnish to it, you'll be able to determine how thick the coating is when it reaches the desired color... and how well it matches and reflects.
Apply the touchup in thin, even coats and build it up until the desired color is achieved... Adjust light areas between the full coats. Let each coat dry completely (the varnish will shrink a bit). Avoid polishing or scraping as much as possible in order to preserve the texture of the wood (match the surrounding finish texture) and watch the gloss... My aim is to have the last coat leave the brush with as little mechanical manipulation as possible required. There's always a little adjustment that has to be done, but if you're careful, it won't be much.
If your touchup is too glossy, you can add matting compound or silica gel powder to it as you build up the layers.
You might want to be careful not to "over restore" the finish. Leave natural wear areas as they are... If you attempt to touch in everything, the instrument will not look natural.
This is not a quick job... and I know it's not a high-end instrument... but it's probably good practice for you (how else are you going to learn how to do it on a better fiddle??).
Good luck! _________________ Jeffrey
http://holmesviolins.com |
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Ed Junior Member
Joined: 02 Apr 2007 Posts: 17 Location: Merrimack, NH USA
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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:57 am Post subject: |
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Jeffrey, can you advise where to get "matting compound" and the silica gel you mentioned? Also, I'm assuming all your retouching is done with spirit varnishes. Do you ever use dry colors, and do you find them to be difficult to work with (like I do)? |
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Jeffrey Holmes Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2007 Posts: 90 Location: Ann Arbor
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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Ed;
Yes, almost all my retouching is done with spirit varnishes. I make a few different ones (different resins) that are compatible (so I can mix them to get different textures and sheens).
I use dyes, but also employ dry colors to control opacity and reflectivity. Dispersing dry colors into the varnish, and keeping them in suspension, can be a pain. I manage by controlling particle size and mixing very small amounts (just what I need for that particular coat and maybe the next).
Silica gel powder is available from a variety of sources… It’s a desiccant and is also used as a matting agent in some commercial varnishes and paint coatings. I’ve also found suitable matting compounds available at well-stocked art stores (where I buy my sable brushes). _________________ Jeffrey
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Mat Roop Senior Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2007 Posts: 911 Location: Wyoming Ontario
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Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Jack and Jeff for your advice. I have read and reread your advice and have a few more questions...hopefully I will not overimpose on your generosity...
When have applied touch up coats in the past, I get edge ridges which are (I think) the result of the edges drying before the rest and it tends to draw the varnish to the edge leaving the ridge. What consistency of the varnish do you apply.. should it be aired out and slightly thick and or just the normal fresh varnish consistency?
Also Jeffrey, I am not sure I understand your comment "Adjust light areas between the full coats" ...do you mean you would apply fresh coats to the entire violin?
Thanks, Mat |
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Jeffrey Holmes Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2007 Posts: 90 Location: Ann Arbor
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Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:00 am Post subject: |
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Hi Mat;
Mat Roop wrote: | .
When have applied touch up coats in the past, I get edge ridges which are (I think) the result of the edges drying before the rest and it tends to draw the varnish to the edge leaving the ridge. What consistency of the varnish do you apply.. should it be aired out and slightly thick and or just the normal fresh varnish consistency? |
Are you talking about the the varnish "pooling" at the edges? If so, you're probably applying way too thick a coat... Touchup isn't accomplished in the same way as one would varnish a new instrument. It's done by layering very thin (as thin as you can make them) coats applied with a smaller brush that is just barely loaded. I test the brush on my nail or the back of my hand to make sure that just a tiny amount will flow onto the work. Thin, carefully applied coats (with the grain of the top) won't pull or pool. Don't be in a hurry. Let each coat dry before applying the next... and you'll be there a while. Could take 20 or 30 applications before you approach the desired coating thickness. If you attempt to apply fewer, thicker coats, you won't have the control required to match the surrounding varnish.
Quote: | Also Jeffrey, I am not sure I understand your comment "Adjust light areas between the full coats" ...do you mean you would apply fresh coats to the entire violin? |
Heavens no! Overcoating instruments isn't something I'm in favor of. I only touch in the areas that require it... and make every effort to leave original varnish alone. I don't like French polishing either.
What I was referring to: When you apply a coat of varnish to the larger bare areas you're dealing with, you may find some spots remain slightly lighter than others. These spots can be darkened by spot touching in between the coats of the larger areas... adjusting the color in the lighter areas so that the color remains "even" as you build up the coating thickness. _________________ Jeffrey
http://holmesviolins.com |
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Mat Roop Senior Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2007 Posts: 911 Location: Wyoming Ontario
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Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:55 am Post subject: |
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Jeffrey,
Thanks, I am beginning to understand when you say 20 to 30 coats. and I did not think you meant coating the whole instrument....but then I like to ask when in doubt!
Thanks again!
Mat |
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Mat Roop Senior Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2007 Posts: 911 Location: Wyoming Ontario
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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The post on "what are you working on" reminded me...Thanks to all especially Jeffery Holmes for all your great advice on finish restoration... not an easy task! Here is the result...
I am quite pleased, but I made one mistake... After the clear coat I used a layer of artist oil color mixed with the varnish to get the color established and save time.... but the opacity, reflective and refractive qualities are not the same, so when you look at the repair, on an angle, you can see the patch...not bad enough to start over again! I thought that the many layers of varnish I was going to add would negate this refective problem... it did to a degree but not enough.
Again thanks to all for a great learning experience!
Cheers, Mat
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Jack H. Super Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2007 Posts: 346 Location: Israel
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Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:11 am Post subject: |
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Good Job Matt!!
SO after it is all done, can you tell us what it was like???
J |
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Mat Roop Senior Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2007 Posts: 911 Location: Wyoming Ontario
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Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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Jack, I presume you are now talking about sound...well... what I had done was to wedge the FB (too lazy I guess to reset the neck!) with ebony and fixed the tilt (it was tilted towards the G) The bridge was way too low... about 28mm...and fitted a new one using the Aubert a Mirecourt treated bridge. At first the sound production was not pleasant! The g& d strings were way to resonant and the e and d were too dull. I made a new thicker softer bridge and carved out more of the waist...helped the g&d but the e&a still dull. So back to the treated bridge, and I started with the post... I made 3 posts & must have tried 20- 30 placements. Final resting place was outside edge of post 2mm past the bridge towards the F hole and 4mm behind the bridge foot. and then the more I played the better it got... nice volume, rather deep resonance, and good (but not great) balance. Delivered the violin 2 days ago.. and the client comment was... now that's a violin I can play!... Phew!!
Cheers!
Mat |
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