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AntonPolezhayev
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Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 53
Location: Long Island NY USA
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 Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| Lemuel wrote: | | Chad48309 wrote: |
I would consider this not a matter of setup or fitting, but a matter wholly dependent on the violinist and his audience. There are many experimental and lo-fi musicians whose entire performance is based around the poorest, most broken violin set-up and the lowest-quality, most rusted strings possible. And, to me, the performance is very interesting and very moving. I don't think you can codify something as personal as the emotional connection of the audience, nor correlate it to something as simple as strings and setups. |
Yes, Chad, you're right. I was seeking clarification on the words "dead" and "soulless". How do you relate to these terms? For no doubt, they are emotional words. |
Basically what I was referring to is that gut is alive, it's not a synthetic made in a lab, it is a fiber that breathes, changes and moves. I like that idea, it's romantic haha...
But without a doubt one can play wonderfully on synthetic and steel strings.
I'm just referring to the type of sound, the nature of it.
For it is my firm belief that the masters of the past were not genetically superior to us, nor did they have more information or practiced more hours, but rather simply had better equipment. For one of many examples of this consider microphones. The sound engineers are now coming back to ribbon microphones more and more. Why ancient ribbon? Because it's like a human ear, it moves in the air like our ear drum. While the modern condenser microphones are "dead", they are synthetic sound producers, they use electronics to even out the sound, and interestingly enough the frequency response of modern microphones is flat.... like a flat line... no pulse, while ribbon mics that Kreisler and Heifetz recorded on are filled with frequency bumps. Blind tests ALWAYS show people prefer old ribbon microphones over modern condenser microphones.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRGrMeix4bA
^^^ And funny enough those are the very worst ribbons compared with one of the best condensers.
_________________
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AntonPolezhayev
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Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 53
Location: Long Island NY USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:04 am Post subject: |
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| Lemuel wrote: |
I would appreciate if you could elaborate on some of those new things that must be learned and old things that must be unlearned.
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For anyone who played for a long time (or always) on steel and/or synthetics I recommend trying Olives and Passione first. give it a few weeks/months, and take your violin to a great luthier to be adjusted if he/she finds the need to do so for your new gut strings.
A change to real raw gut would be way too much of a shock.
Olives and Passione are awesome strings. And they closely resemble gut, steel and synthetics, as they are a mix of the three.
What's different when playing on gut?
1- When playing loud chords or double stops gut strings often collapse under bow pressure and make scratchy noises because they are softer than steel and nylon. One then has to use less bow or play in lower half or move closer to bridge where strings are stiffer.
In this lies a blessing. The term "sound point" becomes irrelevant. Modern violin students are taught to play closer to bridge in order to produce louder solo sound, this spot just between ponticello and normal playing is called "sound point", but with gut you can't play any other way anyway... playing on gut is thus a self correcting mechanism.
In fact the very reason students don't play at sound point is because metals and synthetics sound loud under the ear and students don't understand WHY they should play louder, but with softer sounding gut one moves closer to bridge instinctively and projects more.
2- Some notes both in left and right hands will not come out so easily, and one will thus have to play more clearly and articulate well. Thus we THINK old masters had great articulation, but in reality you simply can't produce secure sound without articulation on gut 
3- When playing very softly gut often stops responding, so one finds that one must sustain sound intensity and volume even in pianissimo. This adds another attractive quality to violin playing, sustained line.
4- Raw gut doesn't allow as smooth shifting as metal covered strings do. So one would have to ease up on left hand finger pressure when shifting.
And again this is not all bad, because one should NOT press on the fingerboard hard when shifting anyway. Another case where natural violin playing takes care of itself without anyone having to teach the student not to press left hand fingers down during shifting.
etc.
Summary:
Gut responds slower and is capricious, you will need to play more clearly, articulately and sensitively. All very good qualities in a player by the way.
_________________
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Lemuel
Site Admin
Joined: 12 Aug 2010
Posts: 515
Location: Mt. Elgin, Ontario
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| Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| AntonPolezhayev wrote: |
Basically what I was referring to is that gut is alive, it's not a synthetic made in a lab, it is a fiber that breathes, changes and moves. I like that idea, it's romantic haha...
But without a doubt one can play wonderfully on synthetic and steel strings.
I'm just referring to the type of sound, the nature of it.
For it is my firm belief that the masters of the past were not genetically superior to us, nor did they have more information or practiced more hours, but rather simply had better equipment. For one of many examples of this consider microphones. The sound engineers are now coming back to ribbon microphones more and more. Why ancient ribbon? Because it's like a human ear, it moves in the air like our ear drum. While the modern condenser microphones are "dead", they are synthetic sound producers, they use electronics to even out the sound, and interestingly enough the frequency response of modern microphones is flat.... like a flat line... no pulse, while ribbon mics that Kreisler and Heifetz recorded on are filled with frequency bumps. Blind tests ALWAYS show people prefer old ribbon microphones over modern condenser microphones.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRGrMeix4bA
^^^ And funny enough those are the very worst ribbons compared with one of the best condensers. |
What you said makes sense. Something has happened also since digital world has entered. Despite the increase in resolution for audio and video, there is that richness or vividness (for lack of better words) in analog recordings that you cannot find in the digital. The digital sounds colder (perhaps this what you mean by dead), more rigid and not as fluid.
| AntonPolezhayev wrote: |
What's different when playing on gut?
1- When playing loud chords or double stops gut strings often collapse under bow pressure and make scratchy noises because they are softer than steel and nylon. One then has to use less bow or play in lower half or move closer to bridge where strings are stiffer.
In this lies a blessing. The term "sound point" becomes irrelevant. Modern violin students are taught to play closer to bridge in order to produce louder solo sound, this spot just between ponticello and normal playing is called "sound point", but with gut you can't play any other way anyway... playing on gut is thus a self correcting mechanism.
In fact the very reason students don't play at sound point is because metals and synthetics sound loud under the ear and students don't understand WHY they should play louder, but with softer sounding gut one moves closer to bridge instinctively and projects more.
2- Some notes both in left and right hands will not come out so easily, and one will thus have to play more clearly and articulate well. Thus we THINK old masters had great articulation, but in reality you simply can't produce secure sound without articulation on gut Smile
3- When playing very softly gut often stops responding, so one finds that one must sustain sound intensity and volume even in pianissimo. This adds another attractive quality to violin playing, sustained line.
4- Raw gut doesn't allow as smooth shifting as metal covered strings do. So one would have to ease up on left hand finger pressure when shifting.
And again this is not all bad, because one should NOT press on the fingerboard hard when shifting anyway. Another case where natural violin playing takes care of itself without anyone having to teach the student not to press left hand fingers down during shifting.
etc.
Summary:
Gut responds slower and is capricious, you will need to play more clearly, articulately and sensitively. All very good qualities in a player by the way.
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This is just awesome information. Thanks for this great post. I can appreciate better the meaning when you said "we will NEVER play as good as them if we don't throw away dead strings". |
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antonio
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Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Croatia
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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As I understood, you can't just change from steel strings to nylon (perlon) or gut strings without changing the bridge?
And can you tell me, what is the difference between steel strings and perlon strings? Is it easier to play with one sort of string, does it give better sound, what is the difference between soft, medium and hard, which ones are for the beginner, which for the pro. Ok, I've seen strings cheap and expensive, why, do these expensive garranty better sound? Are these Thomastik Dominant good? Can you suggest any fairly good steel strings? Sorry for a lot of questions... |
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Lemuel
Site Admin
Joined: 12 Aug 2010
Posts: 515
Location: Mt. Elgin, Ontario
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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Loaded questions....
You first need to decide what type of sound or application you want the strings for. Different strings are made
of different materials (various metals - gold, silver, aluminum, tungsten, copper, etc., nylon, perlon, rope, gut, etc).
Under string tension they will all have their unique sound spectrum or blueprint. Generally speaking, I would
use non-steel strings for classical music. For rock I would use steel.
Soft, medium and hard refer to string tension, and can be confusing to players. Generally speaking, soft
(lower tension) feel less stiff on your fingers than hard (higher tension) strings and therefore is easier to play.
Depending on the type of string you purchase, different players perceive string stiffness (elasticity) in different ways.
For me, I've found that gut/nylon core strings tend to feel "softer" than steel core. I particular like the Eudoxas
by Pirastro.
I find Dominants quite good and respond well in most cases. As far as I know and have heard from others,
many professionals use them. Steel is steel, perlon is a type of nylon. Metals sounds will sound metallic
and edgy. Nylon will not, but have a softer more mellow, rounded sound. For good steel strings try D'addario
Helicore or Pirastro Piranito. |
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antonio
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Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Croatia
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks! |
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