Violin Forum/Message Board

mikemolnar · Member Joined: 30 Mar 2007 Posts: 57

I want to make top plate adjustments, "voicing", on my instruments as they come together. Are there some methods to make plate removal and re-installation easy (easier)?

I erroneously referred to this as "regraduations" on MN and that brought out the anti-regraduation police in force. So, I hope this site understands better.

Stay Tuned.
Mike

ctviolin · Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:36 am Post subject: Re: Making Plate Adjustments

actonern · Super Member Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 444

Hi Mike:

There's a recent earlier thread where Michael D. had mentioned that one thing he does to make top plate removal easier is dilute size the top plate edge and block gluing surfaces with shellac... it allows the dilute glue to hold good, but doesn't make removal as prone to splinters left behind.

Best regards,

E

Janito · Member Joined: 08 Oct 2007 Posts: 114 Location: USA

This site is tending to fall into the "I asked Papa, but I didn't get what I wanted, so now I am asking Mama" mould.

Oded Kishony · Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:21 am Post subject:

Oded Kishony · Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:22 am Post subject:

Nevermind misread qustion.

OK

mikemolnar · Member Joined: 30 Mar 2007 Posts: 57

Michael Darnton · Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:38 am Post subject:

Not the blocks and linings. I use a very dilute shellac only on the plate's gluing surface. One quick wash, and very dilute. If I had to guess, I'd say about one part of canned shellac to 20 or maybe 30 parts of alcohol. It appears both to stick the fibers of the top together a bit more than they do on their own, and make the glue joint a little less secure. If you do it wrong, the worst that will happen is that you may have to reglue the seam in the future.

I started doing this about 10 years ago when I was doing experiments replacing bass bars multiple times to see what changes I could effect with different bars, then carried it through to my own making.

Regarding the original question, it seems like there are already plenty of answers floating around, so I'm wondering why you felt you needed to ask the question. I've always assumed you were well-read enough to know the following, without having to go to a forum:

A lot of people say Carleen Hutchins had the answer, another group says Ed Campbell does, some follow David Langsather, and a host of theoreticians without portfolio, so to speak, have pseudoscientific answers; as I read for the first time the other day, and don't know the truth of, Sam Z apparently believes you can't change the tone via outside adjustments, where that's exactly what Oded says he does. Then there are the 100,000 or so violin makers through the last 400 years who just graduated rather casually to a loose specification and didn't worry about it too much. I may have missed a dozen or so minor theories that have floated at various times. It seems like the real answer to your question is to just pick a horse and ride it--there's no lack of sworn One True Answer horses out there, and each one has a bunch of riders on it. :-)

My personal answer would be to learn what the effects of various graduation changes in specific spots are with the specific models you use, then build the violin you want just as you would build a cookie recipe: adding from here and there according to function and the desired flavor.
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Oded Kishony · Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:17 pm Post subject:

mikemolnar · Member Joined: 30 Mar 2007 Posts: 57

Let me add some thoughts about this process. BTW, I have not come to any conclusion whether I really want (need) to go down this road. Anyhow, it seems we finish up our plates, glue them in, and keep our fingers crossed as we adjust the soundpost.

I am thinking about Sam Z's work and want to get feedback for adjustments - iterate on changes to get a desired result. I am a bit incredulous that we can close the box and expect a great violin. I suspect that the top should be popped for tweaking. Oded may have a better idea, namely to scrape the outside IF the violin is still in the white. But a friend warns me that varnish does affect tone.

Now having written down these thoughts, I want to say that I could still conclude that the old way, guessing about graduation and closing the box, still works best. I'm on the fence. I just need someone to push me. (LAUGHS)

Stay Tuned.
Mike

Michael Darnton · Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:47 am Post subject:

Speaking for myself here, having made about 200 instruments and intentionally done many things differently in an organized way over that span, I am no longer surprised at the results I get, and I am not "guessing".

As for that Holy Grail that violin makers seem always looking for: how to become skilled, talented, and get great results without putting in the time or practice (why does only violin making seem to attract this attitude that the possession of a magical incantation, perhaps in the form of some pseudoscientific strategy, will move you to the head of the field?), that I have no idea how to do.
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mikemolnar · Member Joined: 30 Mar 2007 Posts: 57

Nothing works like success, Michael!

I do not use Campbell's ideas. He's a nice guy, but wrong IMHO. I became interested in Sam Z's work which has nothing to do with free plate tuning. He suggests voicing a nearly finished instrument, which is appealing to my way of thinking. My personal jury is still out on Sam's ideas, and right now I lean to your line of reasoning.

The secret is good workmanship.

Thanks!
Mike

actonern · Super Member Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 444

And yet, (Michael D.) I have to wonder why you of all people wouldn't be at least agnostic about the ongoing and sometimes wacky search for that ineffable "something.?"

In other words modern makers who are satisfied that well constructed new instruments are every bit as good as the golden oldies would have little incentive to fall for gimmicks... why bother... we're already there?

But I don't believe you're one of those people. And so, if one accepts that the golden period makers did something unique that has so far eluded us... well, thats a lot of fertile ground for theory, experimentation, and off-beat solutions!

Best regards,

E

Michael Darnton · Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:10 pm Post subject:

I don't believe that the Ineffable Something will be found via a process which is essentially modern in concept, process, and origin for which there's no historical evidence and no rumors, myths, or precedents. People who are looking in that direction may find a process that works for them, but I have some fundamental problems about even the direction they're attempting to go in, without considering how they intend to do it, so for me there's a deeper problem than just the authenticity of the process.
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DonLeister · Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:22 pm Post subject:

Hi Mike,
My reply is more about your initial post, removing tops easily for revoicing.
The shellac trick works well, I took a top off this week to adjust one of my violins.
It can be a pain to do but this was about a <3 hour job to take it off, rework it, take some notes and glue it back together.
I can't say that I had a real particular voice that I wanted it to be, but the way it was was pretty boring, I wanted it to be more fun to play- it needed some liveliness and sparkle. It required way to much effort for it to start sounding interesting. And that is comparing it against some others of mine and some older workshop instruments that I know well inside and out.
I don't know how well this shot shows it but I was pleased at how well it came off of the ribs, you can see some of the lining split away though but rest is good.

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