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To remove top or not?

 
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johngia
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Joined: 10 Nov 2009
Posts: 84

PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:45 am    Post subject: To remove top or not? Reply with quote

Another question on the violin mentioned in "Neck removal question":

About half of the top has separated from the ribs at several locations. I was thinking to just re-glue the separations.

Would it be better to remove it and do a completely new re-glue? Alignment issues?

Thanks, again, guys --- don't know what I'd do without all your guidance.
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rs
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Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Posts: 188
Location: Holland, Michigan

PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd pop the top. Fix any joint failures and cracks (if any). Attach the top, fill the mortise and fit the neck. But that is just me.
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Randall Shenefelt
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johngia
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Randall.

I'm kind of thinking that that is the best thing to do, but worried about getting the top positioned correctly. I've mostly just built from scratch, and have fixtures to align my tops to sides. But about time I learned to do it "right".
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rs
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the top is fairly well-fit before I remove it, then I just glue the top back the way it was before using the varnish lines as my guide. If the neck is still on, as it usually is, then I pay attention to the pitch of the neck as well. Without the neck, fitting the top is easier. Either way, I start with the corners, then clamp the C's, then the uppers, then the lowers. If I miss a little at getting the ribs where they were for the first 100 years, I just touch it up and go with it after it dries. Tops pretty much go back where they were. It really is pretty straight forward and the older the instrument, the easier it is to pull off. The fragmented splinters that separate from the top and remain on the ribs end up as my guide for reattachment at times, also. It really is a very quick process from start to finish.
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Michael Darnton
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Joined: 23 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I definitely agree. You started all of this because the neck was falling out. Now the top is falling off. It sounds very much like a violin that is begging to be taken apart and glued up. If you glue the top on well, and then everything else keeps falling apart, it will be harder to get the top off to fix, so do it all now. A violin never sounds its best when it's coming unglued. Even if the seams aren't open, but the linings aren't glued to the top, that seriously affects the sound. Almost always, a violin with a top that comes off too easily will sound better after it's all properly glued.

I'd go inside, and check everything. With the top off and neck out is going to be the easiest time ever to reglue the upper block to the back, if it needs it. Loose linings? Blocks? Fix them while you have the access.

One of the things I've learned is to not rush ahead and ignore things that you can easily do that really should be done. I'm always surprised when people don't want to take a violin down to adjust the afterlength..... you have something better to do with those three minutes?

Dig in and fix it.
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johngia
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys convinced me.

Tomorrow --- it comes apart --- we'll "dig in". I'm excited. Hope I can sleep tonight thinking about it Smile
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Michael Darnton
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You'll feel better about putting the top on when you do it. RS's advice about just letting the top click in place is good. Usually if you don't try to clean up everything after you get the top off, all the little slivers and varnish edges demand that the top go on just the way it was before you took it off. You won't find it difficult at all. It's an appropriate technique in situations like this.
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Dave Chandler
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Joined: 31 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johngia wrote:
I'm excited. Hope I can sleep tonight thinking about it Smile
I know how that feels! Still do that.

Just to add to the conversation -- a caution, a stray sliver of wood out of place can lead to cracking the plate when gluing and clamping back on, so check it over carefully as you add your clamps. Been there, done that.
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johngia
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Took the top off.

The rest of the box is actually pretty solid. The end blocks and ribs are still attached to back. Re-glued the ribs where they were slightly separated from the neck block. There is a short crack in the top by the nut. Removed the nut and glued. There are splinters from the top still attached to the ribs, but one was just dangling there. I removed it and and glued it back to the top.

Now, just "patiently" watching my glue dry.

By the way, a friend of mine gave this to me. It belonged to his late wife's mother. He is 86 years old, so we estimate it is about 100 years old. It has the usual "Stradivarius" label which also says "Made in Japan". To me, the quality and construction don't look too bad. Has a nice looking scroll (to my inexperienced eye, anyway).

Now all I have to do is reattach the top and neck ---- successfully !

Thanks, again for all the help.
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Dave Chandler
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since 1914 "made in" was required on imports. After 1922 If it had "Nippon" it was supposed to be back-stamped with "Japan" and "made in" added.

I had a nice Yamaha folk guitar that said "made in Japan" and it was highly prized because most Yamaha guitars were made in Taiwan for a long time. When I was growing up in the 50s and 60s we laughed at "made in Japan" as in the post-WWII era they were recuperating from the war and occupation and quality was generally quite poor from 1945-1960 or so. Its not "occupied Japan" marking, so my guess either its from 1922-39, or after 1952. 100 years would be a stretch.

Hope your repair pays off.

All the best,
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johngia
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the label. (I'll try posting an image) Would this help date the violin?

[img]https://www.dropbox.com/s/m45f73kw37kuhu8/Label%20100_8501.jpg?dl=0[/img]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/m45f73kw37kuhu8/Label%20100_8501.jpg?dl=0

If the image doesn't dislay, it says

Antonius Stradiuarius Cremonensis
Facieabat Anno 1734
Made in Japan

Ready to glue top back on this morning. Also somewhat embarrassed. Called the saddle the nut. But figured you guys would understand anyway. Smile
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johngia
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Epilogue:

Just wanted to share with you all, that I finished the reassembly a while back.

I played it at last Sunday's service. Sounded pretty good. Brought my friend to tears hearing his late wife's violin sing again.

Thanks again for the help.
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Franciscus
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Joined: 11 Jan 2014
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Location: Tuzla, Bosnia

PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johngia wrote:
There is a short crack in the top by the nut. Removed the nut and glued.

Seems that you mentioned the saddle, not the nut. If so, you should maybe shorten the saddle a little (means A LITTLE -two or three strokes of the sandpaper, just in order to relax the tension around the saddle), because such cracks usually have been caused by shrinking of the top around the saddle which is not prone to shrinking.
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