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Preparation of Hide Glue
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kjb
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Joined: 06 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe
145 f is more common
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mikemolnar
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Joined: 30 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leif Luscombe wrote:
The glue pot holds about 4 ounces. I usually start with about 2 ounces of cold water, and put one common teaspoon of dry glue into this. The glue should be fully dissolved while the water is cold.

I do not subscribe to this notion, namely that the glue should be dissolved in cold water. I place the dry glue in cold water and then turn on the heat. This accelerates the process to the point where it is not an inconvenience to prepare hot hide glue.
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Mat Roop
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Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 839
Location: Wyoming Ontario

PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point Mike... Pretty much what I do, except...
I add cold water to the glue granules and by the time I get organized ( drink coffee, consider the task and discover a distraction)... usually 30 -40 mins, the glue has pretty much absorbed the water then into the hot bath goes the glue. Not much fuss getting the glue ready. I use an ajustable temp. hot pot with a thermometer that I fitted into the lid and the glue is in a small heavy glass container set into the water.
Cheers, Mat
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ssorli
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Joined: 19 Nov 2017
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Location: Amherst, MA

PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to the writing of master woodworker Samuel Wolfenden 100 years ago, heating glue above 125 F will destroy the protein of the glue and make it weaker. This may be a bit extreme, I usually go for 130-135 degrees. A digital thermometer is essential. The "Hold-Heet" glue pots are notorious for running way too hot. They can be adjusted. I put all my glue in small jars and in a bath of hot water in a slow cooker. If your cooker runs too hot, like mine, use a repeat cycle timer to control the on/off time. Mine runs for 8 seconds and shuts off for 3 minutes. This offers a better control of the temperature than something with a thermostat. Most repeat cycle timers have a dial for setting the on and off times, so you can adjust it easily as needed.
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ssorli
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Joined: 19 Nov 2017
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find the long clamp times totally unnecessary as long as the parts are not under some unusual stress. Some gluing is done as a rubbed joint without clamps and these joints are extremely strong. I clamp for only 1/2 to 1 hour. If you are using bottled liquid hide glue, you need to clamp several hours, but the stuff is junk and full of urea which breaks down the protein of the glue.
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Franciscus
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Joined: 11 Jan 2014
Posts: 43
Location: Tuzla, Bosnia

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssorli wrote:
According to the writing of master woodworker Samuel Wolfenden 100 years ago, heating glue above 125 F will destroy the protein of the glue and make it weaker. This may be a bit extreme, I usually go for 130-135 degrees. A digital thermometer is essential. The "Hold-Heet" glue pots are notorious for running way too hot. They can be adjusted. I put all my glue in small jars and in a bath of hot water in a slow cooker. If your cooker runs too hot, like mine, use a repeat cycle timer to control the on/off time. Mine runs for 8 seconds and shuts off for 3 minutes. This offers a better control of the temperature than something with a thermostat. Most repeat cycle timers have a dial for setting the on and off times, so you can adjust it easily as needed.

Seems that you missed somethink like this: http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Data/Materials/hideglue.html.
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ssorli
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I have read this. It is full of mis-information that is not based on fact.
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Franciscus
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Joined: 11 Jan 2014
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Location: Tuzla, Bosnia

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssorli wrote:
No, I have read this. It is full of mis-information that is not based on fact.

Oh, I had a different attitude. Can you shed some light on these mis-informations?
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ssorli
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heating glue to 145 degrees is too hot and will break down the protein and weaken it. 125 -135 degrees is preferred. The notion that joints must be clamped before the glue gels is entirely false and not based on fact. I have done experiments at 73 degrees, where joints assembled and clamped after 7 minutes of open time, will yield a joint that is stronger than the wood. Only rubbed joins need to be done quickly.
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Franciscus
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Joined: 11 Jan 2014
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Location: Tuzla, Bosnia

PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssorli wrote:
Heating glue to 145 degrees is too hot and will break down the protein and weaken it. 125 -135 degrees is preferred. The notion that joints must be clamped before the glue gels is entirely false and not based on fact. I have done experiments at 73 degrees, where joints assembled and clamped after 7 minutes of open time, will yield a joint that is stronger than the wood. Only rubbed joins need to be done quickly.

If you prefer to work with cold glue and remove the clamps after half an hour, just do it. But, I do not think that you're ready to be a teacher yet.
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ssorli
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not work with cold glue. I am simply offering the facts of my extensive experimentation. There is a lot of horror hype floating around about hide glue with no scientific experimentation offered to back it up.
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Franciscus
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Joined: 11 Jan 2014
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Location: Tuzla, Bosnia

PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssorli wrote:
(...) I am simply offering the facts of my extensive experimentation. There is a lot of horror hype floating around about hide glue with no scientific experimentation offered to back it up.

Yes, this is exactly what I am talking about.

Your experiments are entertaining and to some extent interesting, but far from scientific experiments, because they have been executed without proper equipment, and, I have to say, without proper planning and finally, without the proper analysis of the results. Furthermore, I've never been the fan of l'art pour l'art, so I do not see any sense in the research of something so old and fully explored as the application of hide glue clearly is. Besides, knowing who Frank Ford is in the world of luthiery, I would hardly have decided to contradict his claims, especially because they are fully in line with common knowledge.
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ssorli
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not contradicting his claims, just some of the statements about hide glue that are simply not true and easily proven so by simple experimentation. The application of hide glue is certainly old, but not fully explored, if there is no agreement among modern woodworkers. There is a lot of "common knowledge" out there on any subject and so much of it is simply not knowledge at all.
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