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Top Back plate graduation from outside after closing the box

 
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Mustafa Umut Sarac
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Joined: 28 Apr 2018
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Location: Istanbul

PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:34 am    Post subject: Top Back plate graduation from outside after closing the box Reply with quote

If the violin sound is the most important , we can think we can use everything for sound.
I want to learn why violin makers does not graduate the plates after the box closed and working from the outside of the violin ?

T think its been proved the stradivari copying is not successful.

We must use a method with entering the box from f holes and we must carve the wood and tune the sound from outside.

I know f hole method is used newly but nobody touches the violin from outside.

Is there a reason ?

It would be easier to do modal tests and graduatrion from outside.

Mustafa Umut Sarac
Istanbul
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L P Reedy
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not true that nobody touches the outside. I always do final graduation by shaping the outside and have seen claims, including by Saconni, that many Cremonese violins show evidence of that. I don't know how many other current makers do the same but I know of a few.

I don't, however, do modal adjustments or other tuning. Maybe I should but I haven't found a useful formula.
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DonLeister
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The current Strad magazine has an article about outside graduations, not sure how specific it gets.
I think the specifics would be dependent on the arching and the wood densities and stiffnesses.
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Mustafa Umut Sarac
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear friends,

Could you please which of Strad magazine describes the out of box grading.

I found we think different things. I think you are talking about arching.
I think arching would be useful but if I am wrong , please correct me , you do follow a lengwise curve to arch the violin.

You start with a curve , follow the curve ascending and descending and you try to make a nice looking violin.

I defend to close the box and do the every irregularities , local carvings , material removal in a local critical area and finally build a whole new library of language which describes critical areas and their surgeon.
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Mustafa Umut Sarac
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the main reason to not surgeon the top and back from outside with highly localized areas is to need a regular sound radiation.

I found MIT and siggraph papers talks about this kind of sound producing , radiation controlled sound sculptures. They always based on art problems but found broad applications.

I read that mass , stiffness and damping factor and each of these variables own 3d matrix is important.

Nobody talks about which side of box you should keep clean and keep irregular carved.

I have to find sound radiation papers from Siggraph and MIT, May be mit and stanford.

Will comment again whren waiting yours also.

By the way , new technologies and algorithms at these papers claims hundreds of times less computation when engineering sound radiation.

Think you mri scanned the wood , mesh with triangles , finite element analysis it and computer found

correct arch of top , correct irregularities and correct sound radiation.

May be this will be usual 40 years later , after the quantum computer revolution.

There is option , we will work for free form top and back or wait the high speed computer to engineer the cut the wood or we will wait low density wood printers.

I think next 60 years , noone would not need cut wood and computers will solve our most ambitious requests in 1 second.
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L P Reedy
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without going into detail, I carve the inside first, mostly do the outside, glue the plate to the ribs, finish the outline, do the purfling and then do the rest of the edge finishing. This sequence gives me the kind of results I'm looking for.

I was not aware that MIT, Stanford or Siggraph (whatever that is) had an advanced violin making program.
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DonLeister
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Could you please which of Strad magazine describes the out of box grading."

April 2018 issue.
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quadibloc
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mustafa Umut Sarac wrote:
I found we think different things. I think you are talking about arching.


No, the article by Dirk Jacob Hamoen is very definitely about the radical and unusual idea of doing graduation from the outside, before the violin is varnished. He claims that measurements done on old violins show that there is more unevenness and asymmetry on the outside surface of violin plates than the inside surface, proving this technique was used.

It is considered radical because the general belief is that graduating the violin results in a complicated uneven surface, so it has to be done from the inside. The violin maker needs to (somehow) acquire the expertise to tell, from the sounds made by tapping the bare plate, when that plate will be suitable to be part of a violin that plays well.

Personally, I suspect that both sides may be correct. But I think the idea of graduating the violin from the outside is a brilliant idea, even if it is, as feared, completely unworkable!

Now, how can that be? Well, suppose that you don't have this amazing expertise to tell, from the "clunk" you make by tapping a plate with your knuckles, how the violin will sound - you have no idea how a bare plate should sound.

Well, then, make a plate by graduating from the outside. If that plate is too lumpy and bumpy for anyone to like the violin - even though it plays beautifully - then take that plate off the violin. How does it sound when you tap it with your knuckles?

The same way you will want to make the plate you graduate from the inside when you tap it with your knuckles!
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Mustafa Umut Sarac
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are right, I have read the article. An dutch guy inserts an magnet inside and than outside and he looks for quality sound and look for needing thicker top area.
Magnets sildes in and outside of top together and when he founds better sound , removes the magnets and carve out the outer zone.

I thinks these things goes very slow , there is no outer carving inside carving maps of the classics.

One american guy pokes a steel piece from soundhole and carves inside and I listened 1 hour video , result was amazing.

He does 10 seconds treatment for 1500 dollars. there is a book about his invention and zones.
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Michael Darnton
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Link please. Does he give refunds if you feel that in a couple of days the violin has reverted to what it was before?

Mustafa Umut Sarac wrote:

One american guy pokes a steel piece from soundhole and carves inside and I listened 1 hour video , result was amazing.

He does 10 seconds treatment for 1500 dollars. there is a book about his invention and zones.

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Mustafa Umut Sarac
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cremona Violins cover
Cremona Violins
A Physicist's Quest for the Secrets of Stradivari
(With DVD-ROM)
https://doi.org/10.1142/6728 | November 2009
Pages: 176
By (author): Kameshwar C Wali (Syracuse University, USA)
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ISBN: 978-981-279-109-2 (hardcover)
GBP55.00
ISBN: 978-981-279-110-8 (softcover)
GBP39.00
ISBN: 978-981-4338-33-2 (ebook)
GBP32.00
Description
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Supplementary
Cremona violins occupy a unique and storied place in violin history. This book contains a brief account of that history — the rise and fall of the Cremonese art of violin making that dominated over two centuries. It is primarily devoted, however, to the physics behind violin acoustics, specifically the research of William F “Jack” Fry over the past several decades. The gradual evolution of his ideas leading to a holistic approach is chronicled, in sharp contrast to the conventional “reductionist” analysis. With rare insights, he has come closer than anyone before in reproducing the tonal qualities of the great Italian masters. This historic achievement makes the book extremely valuable for violin makers and violin researchers, enabling young and aspiring violinists to own excellent sounding instruments with the acoustical marvels of the old at affordable prices.

The accompanying video features Fry's demonstration of how and why minute changes in thickness graduations make predictable changes in tonal qualities of an instrument.

Sample Chapter(s)
Chapter 1: Luigi Tarisio and the Violins of Cremona (1,242 KB)

Contents:
Luigi Tarisio and the Violins of Cremona
The Rise and Fall of the Cremonese Art of Violin Making Antonio Stradivari (1644c–1737)
The Anatomy of a Violin and the Mechanism of Sound Production
Some Historical Notes on Violin Research Over Centuries
William F Fry and His Quest for the Secrets of Cremona Violins
Myth and Reality of Cremona Violins, Fry's Violins
A Convergence of Science and Art

Readership: Physicists, musicologists, violin makers and violin researchers.
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Mustafa Umut Sarac
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

YOUTUBE

Solving the Stradivarius Secret - William F. "Jack" Fry and Rose Mary Harbis

BostonMOS
21 Kas 2013 tarihinde yayınlandı
Physicist William F. "Jack" Fry and violinist Rose Mary Harbison rediscover the legendary sound of the Stradivarius violin.Since the early 1700s, "Golden Age" Italian violins have been revered for their superior tone. Scores of scientists, artisans, and musicians have sought answers to the mystery of their sound, but none has been able to duplicate the magic created by these coveted instruments. Characterizing varnish, wood, and geography as secondary factors, William Fry has revived the 17th century science of levers, focusing on the violin's inner graduation
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Chet Bishop
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:32 am    Post subject: "Secret of Stradivari" Reply with quote

I have lost count of all the "Secret of Stradivari Revealed!" articles I have read, over the years. They all turn out to be wide of the mark, and usually are later debunked, but it makes a great headline, so journalists will keep using it.

Some have been positive changes, some definitely detrimental, some historically inauthentic, some simply defy logic or physics, etc.

There may be some things that the Cremonese makers did that were unique, which contributed to the desirable sound, and I think that the hypo-cycloid curves (Curtate cycloids) may be one of those things.

But my personal conclusion has moved toward "The secret of Stradivari is that he was one of the two or three best violin makers who ever lived."

Magic sauce? maybe, but no one has been able to prove it. Special procedural difference? Possibly...but there have been thousands of luthiers who have tried to duplicate it.

I have come to a point where I am no longer looking for magic potions or secret handshakes. Not even a little.
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Mustafa Umut Sarac
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you dont look , you cant see it , continue to read. my 2 pence.
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Michael Darnton
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose that the first problem here is that anything you do to upset a violin will make it sound good for a few hours,, and then, for those few hours, you are a genius. Write a book, charge a lot. Try it--just take your bridge, move it two mm to the right, strum a bit, two mm to the left, strum, then back to center. Now, play the violin again. You should notice the difference, and it will stay for a few hours.

A customer of mine, living in a different place, took his cello to the local genius. Very hard to get an appointment, practically needed a resume. Finally after some month or two, he got an appointment, went in, spent a couple of hours, and was charged $200 for the master's knocking a lot of bits around, a lot of mysterious tapping, chanting and secret stuff. He told me it was worth it! Then I asked him if all of that stuck. . . . he'd never asked himself that question, and on reflecting, actually no, it hadn't--by a day or so later, it was all gone.

That is why my cello-playing partner and I set up cellos over the course of a week or two. We make a change, let it settle, make another. By the time we are done, we have made real, permanent changes. No one ever asks for an adjustment on something they are buying--by that time it is right AND settled.
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