Violin Forum/Message Board

HAK · Junior Member Joined: 27 Apr 2008 Posts: 18

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Hank WD5JFR

Dave Chandler · Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 11:30 am Post subject: Neck broke

If you carefully clamp it back in place, does the break become invisible? Any sign of glue in the joint? If there's a large thick layer of glue left behind, it would seem to me that it was not properly fitted to begin with and would need some refitting. If very thin evidence of glue, and If it clamps back nice and tight, this novice would go ahead and glue it back without messing with the wood.
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Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill

"I took the road less travelled, and now I don't know where I am." Marco Polo

HAK · Junior Member Joined: 27 Apr 2008 Posts: 18

I've got strong hands and I cannot squeeze it down nor pull the neck up. Looking under the finger board I see evidence of a yellowish glue that has oozed out on the violin top. Taking a closer look at the alignment of the neck and the body it looks to me like the neck pivoted up from string tension. I wonder if the glue could have melted from being in a hot car and the string tension did the rest.
Looking at the separation with a magnifying glass I think I can see evidence of glue that has fine strands indicating that it was tacky and was pulled. But this is my first time in attempting violin repair so I'm looking for any good advice I can find.
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Hank WD5JFR

Dave Chandler · Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 1:21 pm Post subject: broke neck

Hak:
I think I'll defer to a more experienced person. Hot trunk would explain the glue failure, then reset, I suppose. So, its stuck in its current position? Seems it would give pretty easily looking at the photo. It may be that the upper block has become detached from the plates, rather than from the neck itself. Interesting...
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Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill

"I took the road less travelled, and now I don't know where I am." Marco Polo

Dave Chandler · Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 1:26 pm Post subject: B roke neck

After looking some more, if the upper block were detached from the neck, the ribs would be travelling along with the neck/block, but the neck is seperated from the ribs and button, so I think that idea is probably not leading anywhere. Can't think why it doesn't come off the rest of the way, what's holding it.
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Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill

"I took the road less travelled, and now I don't know where I am." Marco Polo

Dave Chandler · Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 1:37 pm Post subject: Broke neck

I'd be tempted to take the fingerboard off so you can get a fine blade into the joint from the top. It may be a small amount of glue is still holding the neck at the top of the upperblock/upper plate area, and the only way to get to that would be from the top. Again, might want for a more seasoned repairman to weigh in, maybe later today, or tomorrow before moving ahead.
If the glue glob you see is between the neck and fingerboard, its probably not related, but might mean difficulty getting the fingerboard off. I use an artists thin metal palette knife to remove the fingerboard. Try both ends, usually either at the nut or the wide end, you can find a little bit of space to get it started. Be careful, even a palette knife can do some damage to you so wear gloves, and if it won't pop off, you may need to use a little heat to loosen it up. Surely, it won't hurt the neck joint at this point. But be judicious with the heat too.
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Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill

"I took the road less travelled, and now I don't know where I am." Marco Polo

HAK · Junior Member Joined: 27 Apr 2008 Posts: 18

I was able to dislodge the glue puddle from under the finger board. Here's a pic. Any suggestions as to what tests I might try to see what it is so I can loosen the neck.

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Hank WD5JFR

Jack H. · Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject:

JUst hold the neck in your left hand and fige the left hand a good whack with your right hand in the difection needed to remove the neck.

HAK · Junior Member Joined: 27 Apr 2008 Posts: 18

Jack H. · Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 4:17 pm Post subject:

You can use water under the fingeboard where the top adn the neck sole meet, but there is really nothing holding the neck in place at this point except for friction at the table edge, you can also use a very thin palette knife at table overhang where it meets the neck and then just grab it and wiggle and pull, after you loosen up that glue under the gb which most likely is varnish.

FiddleDoug · Member Joined: 08 Sep 2007 Posts: 227 Location: Hilton, NY

Does the neck wiggle at all? Does it appear to be loose from the ribs and block on the sides? If not, you may have to cut along the sides of the neck at the ribs to free it. A small jewelers saw is the tool to use. Once the sides are free, all you have holding it is an end grain glue joint on the end of the neck. That would normally break loose pretty easily with hide glue, but you don't have hide glue. You might want to try a bit of water (or water with vinegar) on a bit of your removed glue puddle to see if you can soften it up. If you can soften it, try it on the joint.
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HAK · Junior Member Joined: 27 Apr 2008 Posts: 18

I can't make the neck move in any direction and I have applied force to the point I feel is approaching the point of breaking something. There is no slack anywhere.
I dipped the piece of glue and dipped it in lighter fluid, acetone, alcohol, toluene and water. And it turns milky and softens in water. So with this info, what should I do?
Here's another pic.

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Hank WD5JFR

sonnichs · Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 10:13 pm Post subject:

Hak
I think that you are dealing with "capenters glue". Some manifestations such as "elmers" will dissolve in water better than others. They tend to turn milky when wet.
I would proceed with caution here-hide glue has certain well known "breaking" properties that are invoked when disassembling a violin- these things don't always work with other glues and can lead to damage.
It is possible that someone worked carpenters glue into the neck to attach it and it now has a pretty good grip between the neck and upper block. Perhaps pulling the upper table is in order here if you know how to do that.

Fritz

JWH · Member Joined: 26 Mar 2007 Posts: 72

The neck appears to be locked in around the lip of the top. This may be more than just a tight 90 degree fit. The mortice may be angled outward as you move in toward the block and the neck (tenon) is likewise angled. Even the slightest angle will wedge the neck if you try to pull it straight out. The neck, therefore, has to be lifted up far enough for the wider inner portion to clear the narrower portion at the top edge. That may be no more than 3 or 4 mm. The fact that the top of the neck won't budge out to get an open gap, with fingerboard off, so you can try working water softened glue out, seems to me that it leaves you with a narrow-kerf saw job at the top edge juncture. Others may have better ideas.
It's maddening to run into compound mortices however slight.

Jeffrey Holmes · Member Joined: 03 Apr 2007 Posts: 90 Location: Ann Arbor

If I'm seeing what I think I'm seeing, the instrument looks like a commercial one with inked purfling, correct? Korean factory maybe?

If so, the neck was very likely glued in with an emulsion glue or something similar... These glues will "creep" significantly under tension while still grabbing the joint (making disassembly difficult). In any case, probably not an instrument you'll want to spend the effort of a true neck reset on. Hopefully you can get by with a simple re-gluing.

Some glues will soften with white vinegar... might try that on the glue glob you removed.

If you do manage to get the thing apart, you'll need to clean all traces of the old glue out before re-gluing with hide glue.
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Jeffrey

http://holmesviolins.com