| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Jeffrey Holmes
Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 90
Location: Ann Arbor
|
 Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:52 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| byacey wrote: | | Purists may strongly disagree with me, but I use G2 epoxy on the back and belly center join. This is one of the things that you never need or want to come apart. I have had 100% success with a dead flat joint, epoxying and clamping. This joint won't even come apart after submerging the joined pieces underwater for months, and provides a neat, tight, invisible glue joint. |
Well, this purist does (disagrees). Epoxy joins don't react to stresses in the same way as hide glue bonds. Epoxy "creeps" with time. As a matter of fact, under a listing for G-2 I found the following quote: "The joint will yawn rather than fracture."
I wouldn't want to be the guy to repair that problem down the road.... 
_________________
Jeffrey
http://holmesviolins.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
byacey
Member
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 105
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| The stresses found in a violin are miniscule compared to what this glue is capable of. I don't believe that any plate joint is going to open much less move. Mixed 1:1 it forms a hardness equal to or better than hide glue, but without the brittleness. Time will tell. I have glue joints made 25 years ago that haven't moved in any way to date. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jeffrey Holmes
Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 90
Location: Ann Arbor
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| byacey wrote: | | The stresses found in a violin are miniscule compared to what this glue is capable of. I don't believe that any plate joint is going to open much less move. Mixed 1:1 it forms a hardness equal to or better than hide glue, but without the brittleness. Time will tell. I have glue joints made 25 years ago that haven't moved in any way to date. |
Hmmm... My experience is that it doesn't take too much stress to get a joint to creep or skate if the adhesive used to make it has that sort of property. It takes time.... and instrument plates can do a good amount of moving around under tension for a few centuries.... but even if 9 out of 10 of your joints never fail, I surely wouldn't want to be the person fixing the "1".
Have heard that G-2 works well when used in oily wood repair procedures (like pernambuco) however.... Of course I understand it's common use is with tip splines for bows... a slightly different kind of joint (lamination of sorts) where a glue like cyanoacrylate may end up being too brittle in time. I avoid bow restoration these days, however (have a great specialist only a couple blocks away).
BTW: The violin I'm presently restoring has nice hide glue joints that have been together since 1657.... and there's a pretty steady parade of 17th & 18th century instruments through here that have fine intact joints... so I think I can say I know what to expect from a well executed hide glue bond. Nice added benefit is, if one fails or needs to be opened and re-closed, it's relatively simple. In this case, tradition has it's advantages I think... but you certainly don't need to pay attention to my concerns. I've got some work to do.
_________________
Jeffrey
http://holmesviolins.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
byacey
Member
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 105
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Jeffery, I appreciate your viewpoint on the hide glue, and I certainly believe it has it's place for certain joints you may want to break loose, like neck root , top, linings, fingerboard, etc. I'm sure the old makers would certainly have use a glue such as this had it been available for something they didn't ever want to come apart. This glue is not elastic in anyway once it's cured, so I don't believe a joint would ever shift over time. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jeffrey Holmes
Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 90
Location: Ann Arbor
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| byacey wrote: | | Jeffery, I appreciate your viewpoint on the hide glue, and I certainly believe it has it's place for certain joints you may want to break loose, like neck root , top, linings, fingerboard, etc. I'm sure the old makers would certainly have use a glue such as this had it been available for something they didn't ever want to come apart. This glue is not elastic in anyway once it's cured, so I don't believe a joint would ever shift over time. |
Byacey;
With all due respect, I've experienced first hand the effect of adhesives that are certainly "stronger" (in some ways) and more "durable" (in other ways) than hide glue, used to join things together (by both makers and restorers) "that never need to come apart" and "the old masters would have used if it had been available". In almost every case I can think of, these wonders have been abandoned. They do not act, in the long run, the way reversible glue like hide does... and the bond type (chemical reactive film) isn't the same.
The truth is, in time and under certain conditions, I can't think of a single part of an instrument that "never needs to come apart". Never say never, as they say. The fact that we can disassemble them and correct problems is one reason they last so long.
In addition, considering the advantages of a well executed hide bond, I can't see what there is to improve on. If a plate bond fails in the short term, it's almost always because of workmanship or material choice, not the fault of the hide glue.
One notable exception (short term failure) I can think of... A well known maker buddy here in Ann Arbor left his back plate out for some sun and forgot to bring it in before the rainstorm. Yes, about a third of the plate join failed... and good thing. The plate twisted, expanded and shrunk back rather severely. If the bond hadn't failed, the back certainly would have cracked. As it was, it required rejoining and clamping to a flat board for a while.
Long term? Well, there are occasional bond failure rates (100, 200, 300 years), but they are caused by damage or environmental factors. Not convinced G-2 would fare much, if any, better.
I've read the technical information available for G-2... and I've played with the stuff. It's a nice glue. I can think of a good number of things I'd use it for, but nothing directly involving the assembly of fiddle parts. Might consider it for use when installing a carbon fiber reinforcement in a 'cello neck, however.
That said, I've no reason to care much if you want to use it to join your plates.... and as I mentioned, you don't need to pay attention to my concerns. You see, I really don't do this for a living, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.
Cheers!
_________________
Jeffrey
http://holmesviolins.com
Last edited by Jeffrey Holmes on Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:42 pm; edited 4 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
violinarius
Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 171
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| byacey wrote: | | This joint won't even come apart after submerging the joined pieces underwater for months, and provides a neat, tight, invisible glue joint. |
I could be wrong, but it is my understanding that epoxy glue leaves a glue line, whether you can see it or not, it is there. Hide glue needs perfect wood to wood contact because it works without leaving a glue line.
They have pulled wooden objects out of ancient Egyptian tombs that were glued with hide glue, and they were still good, so that seems to be a pretty good record to me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
arglebargle
Junior Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 5
Location: Brunswick, Maine
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| byacey wrote: | | This joint won't even come apart after submerging the joined pieces underwater for months, and provides a neat, tight, invisible glue joint. |
A violin in this environment will have much more to worry about then it's center joint.
The violin is a very fickle thing. It doesn't beg much comparison with the rest of the wood working world.
Violin making has more to do with wood carving then carpentry.
I can make you a much better violin then I ever could a table, though you could eat off of either.
And I would no sooner set sail in a boat put together with hide glue then I would set foot onstage playing a dinghy. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jessupe goldastini
Member
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 169
Location: sana' rafaela'
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
"Violin making has more to do with wood carving then carpentry"
that depends on what type of carpentry and how much carving is involved in that carpentry....
perm
permenent
permenently
permenently screwed....
ya just can't improve on renderd critters
hyde glue is amazing, it can do anything....why i used it to save my marriage and cut away at those unwanted calories all at the same time and i'm not even married and i'm not fat.....amazing...
umm from one of those dumb carpenter guys..
i would state that your concerns do not lie within the joints "perment,ness'ness", it lies within the fact that a hyde joint beyond having the ability to be heated and opened up is a glue that is thermaly sensitive to both heat and cold....under extreme heat and dry conditions the wood will shrink, as it shrinks great force is exerted on all glue joints, in a "pulling" fashion....under cold and damp conditions, the wood will expand and swell, in essence literally get bigger, this also puts tremendous presurre on the glue joints, and does the opposite tension and "pushes" on them....the wonderful thing about hyde glue is that if properly prepeared in various stregnth for various parts it will often times act in "sync" with the wood and offer the most bond stregnth yet at the same time offer the most flexibility and the most important of all "the coeffecient "snap' factor....in the never say never world of things beyond control, if the violin gets exposed to harsh extremes the glue joints many times will pop thus sacraficing a joint but saving the top by not starting a 'fault line" crack off an F hole or a nice thin back....i think most would prefer to fix a "natural" seem rather than one that is opend up where it should not be...
however that being said, i use one peice top/backs as much as possible, to avoid this all together...i call it cheating
my new 5 string rocks |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jack H.
Super Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 346
Location: Israel
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Jeffrey Holmes wrote: | | byacey wrote: | | Jeffery, I appreciate your viewpoint on the hide glue, and I certainly believe it has it's place for certain joints you may want to break loose, like neck root , top, linings, fingerboard, etc. I'm sure the old makers would certainly have use a glue such as this had it been available for something they didn't ever want to come apart. This glue is not elastic in anyway once it's cured, so I don't believe a joint would ever shift over time. |
Byacey;
With all due respect, I've experienced first hand the effect of adhesives that are certainly "stronger" (in some ways) and more "durable" (in other ways) than hide glue, used to join things together (by both makers and restorers) "that never need to come apart" and "the old masters would have used if it had been available". In almost every case I can think of, these wonders have been abandoned. They do not act, in the long run, the way reversible glue like hide does... and the bond type (chemical reactive film) isn't the same.
The truth is, in time and under certain conditions, I can't think of a single part of an instrument that "never needs to come apart". Never say never, as they say. The fact that we can disassemble them and correct problems is one reason they last so long.
In addition, considering the advantages of a well executed hide bond, I can't see what there is to improve on. If a plate bond fails in the short term, it's almost always because of workmanship or material choice, not the fault of the hide glue.
One notable exception (short term failure) I can think of... A well known maker buddy here in Ann Arbor left his back plate out for some sun and forgot to bring it in before the rainstorm. Yes, about a third of the plate join failed... and good thing. The plate twisted, expanded and shrunk back rather severely. If the bond hadn't failed, the back certainly would have cracked. As it was, it required rejoining and clamping to a flat board for a while.
Long term? Well, there are occasional bond failure rates (100, 200, 300 years), but they are caused by damage or environmental factors. Not convinced G-2 would fare much, if any, better.
I've read the technical information available for G-2... and I've played with the stuff. It's a nice glue. I can think of a good number of things I'd use it for, but nothing directly involving the assembly of fiddle parts. Might consider it for use when installing a carbon fiber reinforcement in a 'cello neck, however.
That said, I've no reason to care much if you want to use it to join your plates.... and as I mentioned, you don't need to pay attention to my concerns. You see, I really don't do this for a living, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.
Cheers! |
I heard today from someone who worked at Jaques francais in NYC ( a bowmaker now, David Samuels) that he was told to reepair a broken scroll on a Guarneri with cabinet style biscuits adn gorilla glue....
I was a bit shocked with the glue choice and intrigued with the biscuit joinery, must have been a pain in th eass getting everything in the right place.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jeffrey Holmes
Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 90
Location: Ann Arbor
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | I heard today from someone who worked at Jaques francais in NYC ( a bowmaker now, David Samuels) that he was told to reepair a broken scroll on a Guarneri with cabinet style biscuits adn gorilla glue....
I was a bit shocked with the glue choice and intrigued with the biscuit joinery, must have been a pain in th eass getting everything in the right place.... |
To be fair, I wasn't there to see the application... but Ick!
_________________
Jeffrey
http://holmesviolins.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
violinarius
Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 171
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
"I heard today from someone who worked at Jaques francais in NYC ( a bowmaker now, David Samuels) that he was told to reepair a broken scroll on a Guarneri with cabinet style biscuits adn gorilla glue....
I was a bit shocked with the glue choice and intrigued with the biscuit joinery, must have been a pain in th eass getting everything in the right place...." from Jack H.
Perhaps the biscuits are for the Gorilla? When you're that big and you don't have bananas, you need to eat something. IMHO biscuits taste better than glue.   Try surviving a famine with epoxy!   |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tomigv
Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2008
Posts: 50
Location: lee/s summit mo
|
| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 8:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hi ! have you tried a fore plane ??mine is 18 in long made of maple and walnut with a rosewood sole and ECE plane blade I also use an 18 in long vice from woodcraft it really makes a difference ?? I have tried planing in my record 12 in long vice and I think for me it makes a differnece, using a longer vice. I also have a euro shoulder vice with the extra leg, which works almost as well. I have tried shooting across the egde of the board with a plywood jig on the workbench but that never seemed to work. Hang in there and try different methods to see which onw works for you cheers. Ps I also have 2 , 24 in ECE jointer planes but find them too cumbersome for vln and vla. They work better for guitars and cellos
_________________
I am very interested in violin and bow making. Have quite a few interesting bows and a large cache of pernambuco. I like to experiment using local midwest hardwoods, |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tomigv
Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2008
Posts: 50
Location: lee/s summit mo
|
| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 8:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hi ! have you tried a fore plane ??mine is 18 in long made of maple and walnut with a rosewood sole and ECE plane blade I also use an 18 in long vice from woodcraft it really makes a difference ?? I have tried planing in my record 12 in long vice and I think for me it makes a differnece, using a longer vice. I also have a euro shoulder vice with the extra leg, which works almost as well. I have tried shooting across the edge of the board with a plywood jig on the workbench but that never seemed to work. Hang in there and try different methods to see which onw works for you cheers. Ps I also have 2 , 24 in ECE jointer planes but find them too cumbersome for vln and vla. They work better for guitars and cellos
_________________
I am very interested in violin and bow making. Have quite a few interesting bows and a large cache of pernambuco. I like to experiment using local midwest hardwoods, |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
