Violin Forum/Message Board

[Becky]

My interest has definitely been piqued by this discussion. Amezcua, your idea sounds very promising. I wish I could picture it better. You said there is nothing contacting the violin when you play...where is it attached to? Are you willing to post a picture?

I agree with Amalia. Whatever you're adding needs to either be removable or fit in the case when it's on the violin.

My younger students especially tend to have problems with their sponges and I'd be very interested in other options.

This discussion reminded me of a box of old assorted violin parts I bought a few years ago. There were quite a few chinrests that looked normal on the top and ribs, but the way it attached on the back on the violin was different. Instead of being the thinnish metal bar you usually see there was a sort of flat metal square extending out. It didn't touch the violin (beyond what was needed to secure the chinrest), but it wasn't far enough away from the body to cause any problems fitting in a case. There were attachments that slid over that flat metal square--sort of like a very flat tunnel that surrounded the metal square on all sides. Then, on the side of the attachment that would be touching you when holding the violin in playing position there was a cushion of sorts. I don't know if this is anything like what you made, or if any part of this design is of interest to you, but I thought I'd share in case it is.

[John Cadd]

Becky The strongest part of the rest is made of polypropylene and it returns to the shape you make it.This means it stays in contact with the player.The attachment is by 3 small cable ties to the metal chinrest clamps.These cable ties don`t look very strong but they have a 40 pound breaking point. I know it is something ridiculously strong like that. There is enough room to attach the rest without them touching the varnish. They are very easy to remove without any damage. Polyprop is so flexible and tough. The "spring" pressure to hold the instrument in place is very light.
I did a test on the friction cloth. (Not Velcro !) Clamp one strip to the table.Lay another strip on top that hangs over the edge and tie a hook to the overhang. Place a kichen weight of 8 ounces on top of the two strips.
Now then------Starter for ten points----Guess how much weight the hook will hold ?
See who can get the nearest. BTW 8 ounces is half the weight of a violin. ( The bit your chin holds ).

[John Cadd]

Becky I left out something about the metal "bracket?" beneath your unusual violin rest The one I`ve made uses the springiness of the plastic to do the same job. I preferred to avoid anything that would create leverage on the wood.
I worked out the way to measure the clearance above the bridge when the case is closed. I used Bluetack .Odds on it will have a different name in America. It is light blue stuff like plasticene.We use it to stick cards onto windows as a temporary fixing.
Make a blob of it to sit behind the bridge with a thin pointy "spike"coming up between the strings. Then close the case to see how much clearance you have. (If the point bends then you reshape lower and try again.) I measured 5/8 ths of an inch clear before adding the rest.With the latest minor alteration it was still 5/8ths of an inch.This last detail has been persecuting me for weeks.
With the grippy material I have used the spring only needs 2 or 3 ounces contact pressure to work effectively. The forces due to vibrato and downshifting are all closely controlled without any neck tension.
The main thing is that there is light at the end of the tunnel for players with shoulder rest problems.

[AntonPolezhayev]

shoulder rest = terrible invention. (and yes, I have a really long neck)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLDeYZXUDDQ

[Amalia]

Personally, I can't imagine playing without a shoulder rest. You really have to pull your shoulder up into an unnatural position to do so and it seems only logical to me that if you want to continue playing pain-free for years, you would want to learn to play with your body in as natural a position as possible.

Amezcua, thank you for the email. I am out of town at the moment and I can't seem to open the attachment on my little "notebook" computer, so I might not be able to view it for a few more days (until I return home). Thanks again, I'm very anxious to see it.

[Andres Sender]

Although this is not relevant to the question of whether, or when, a shoulder rest is a good idea, it is not at all true that the only alternative to playing with a rest is to raise your shoulder.

Many fine players through history have played without a shoulder rest and did so in a relaxed way without raising the shoulder. Very fine players still play this way today. You can see videos of many players of the early 20th to mid 20th century and see this for yourself, and of course during the whole 19th century most of the virtuosi had no shoulder rests.

When not using a rest, the correct technique is to support the violin on the collarbone and the left hand, with the chin preventing it from sliding off. This information is widely available and any player needs to be familiar with the proper collarbone contact sans rest as that contact is still the foundation for a good solid hold when using a rest.
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You can only connect the dots that you have.

[John Cadd]

Thanks Amalia I have been out of touch myself for some days.
Anton That`s a fine Polish sounding name.You probably use a chinrest and you would (I promise you ) like this design. It is very thin under the violin and cuts out any slipping forces with a total pressure of 8 ounces.Well ,of course ,that is the weight of half a violin.So you ----don`t need to press at all really. The collar bone is covered by a thin layer to spread the pressure, so ---no discomfort..8 ounces (weight of 1/2 violin ) produces over 7 pounds friction to cancel sliding. At the same time the violin will lift silently away without any resistance. All the materials are readily available and work reliably.The trick is combining them to give exactly the correct control without weight or mechanical gripping on the violin.
The collarbone area only ,supports that end of the violin.The shoulder is never needed. Shifting down is no problem as the violin is effortlessly controlled.No extra pressure at all is needed.
Vibrato with a "normal" shoulder rest can induce some disturbance of the violin due to the shoulder muscles tensing and relaxing..This is no longer a problem. Maximum contact with the back of violin is at most about one centimetre from the edge. (If that). I P O G B 2461063

[John Cadd]

Anton I have just listened to your Paganini . I am very impressed.You squeeze a lot of musical juice out of those pieces. Such variety of tone and clarity. Very glad you posted.

[AntonPolezhayev]

[AntonPolezhayev]

[John Cadd]

Becky I haven`t forgotten you.I should be able to get a photo soon.Something I`ve never done before.
Anton I like the Ricci book(s) .I have only seen one so far.Everything you describe about the violin- hold chimes in with this design.The big difference is the neck strap loop and I worry that players will be put off by it. But , put it this way, If it`s new and it`s going to be different , it can`t possibly be the same---can it? Physically , it makes you feel more secure . Maybe it will help with stage fright .
The violin part flexes with a few ounces and simply adapts to the shape of the player.The pliable fit (contact between friction cloth surfaces ) gives a strong hold and eliminates slipping.
If players can just get their head around removing a small piece of foam padding from their cases the most effective design can stay attached permanently.The collar piece will fit in the case ( no sharp bits ) or just tuck it under your coat collar.
I wonder if any players have actually dropped a violin. If you have ----please post now .
Also Anton One question was asked about what violin you use.Well, today , I heard Fritz Kreisler`s Guarneri played by ( I think ) James Ennes. To me it sounded like a completely different instrument . So your sound is ----you playing----- and not just the instrument and I like it a lot and you certainly have that Devilish sound. Something I haven`t heard much lately.
If you play the Devil`s trill ----make it good and scratchy.

[AntonPolezhayev]

[John Cadd]

Anton Just an early morning afterthought. I left a question hanging.
This has no name as yet.
The idea behind patenting was to make sure ,eventually ,a lot were made as they will help a lot of players.
You are one of the lucky ones on the end of a Bell Curve that can manage without a rest .Most are in a big bump in the middle of the curve.

[techfiddle]

>> 4- a violin is SUPPOSED to rest in your left hand as you play.

As I'm sure you know, this assertion is the the exact opposite of what is prescribed by the Suzuki method, assuming I understand it correctly. That's rather a big assumption, actually. But what I teach my students is that the violin is not held by the left hand, but by the collar bone and neck, along with the chin. That the violin should be held absolutely securely without the left hand.

In fact, the exercise of holding the violin up with this collar bone/neck/chin configuration without the left hand, or the left hand crossed over onto the right shoulder, is one of the first exercises new students are trained to use.

Just saying...

[AntonPolezhayev]