Violin Forum/Message Board Forum Index Violin Forum/Message Board
Provided by Violin Vision
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

A little advice for my first violin?

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Violin Forum/Message Board Forum Index -> Introduction, Rules and Suggestions
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
eveningninja
Junior Member


Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:29 pm    Post subject: A little advice for my first violin? Reply with quote

I'm going to purchase a violin and begin learning to play. Being my first, I don't want to spend a lot of money on it, but am looking to maybe spend in the $100-$200 range. Where are the best places, what are the best brands, basically... what should I keep an eye out for, in searching for the best sounding violin possible in this price range? Any tips?

Or are they all gonna sound rather low-quality anyway so it doesn't matter too much which one I get?

Thanks.

Btw, I am 21 year old male, about 5'7" height, so I'm assuming a normal 4/4 full size violin right?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Lemuel
Site Admin


Joined: 12 Aug 2010
Posts: 515
Location: Mt. Elgin, Ontario

PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, thanks for introducing yourself to the forum.

This recent post sums it up well.

http://www.violins.ca/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1117

Please read it well. It can make the difference between future gratefulness or future regret.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
eveningninja
Junior Member


Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you. Hm... how much does renting generally cost? I mean, I'd assume that renting a beginner's violin can be really cheap, but the whole point of renting would be that I could end up playing a nice-sounding violin without dishing out 800+ dollars, right? So I'd assume the renting rate would also be somewhat expensive then? What exactly are the advantages of renting? There's something about it I just feel weird about. I mean, I am a pretty serious guitarist and I've never rented a guitar, always just found good Used-instrument deals. But is the violin just different for some reason?

Thanks again.

These are a few I found:

http://band-orchestra.musiciansfriend.com/product/Florea-Prodigy-Violin-Outfit?sku=470258

http://cgi.ebay.com/Very-Unique-Antique-Style-Two-Piece-Back-4-4-Violin-/180361809935?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item29fe66d00f#ht_1775wt_1168

http://cgi.ebay.com/Beautiful-Hand-Made-4-4-Size-Violin-Case-Bow-494-/180523311865?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a080722f9#ht_1743wt_1168

http://www.stevesgifts.com/Music_Instruments_Pages/Violin_Tiger_Flamed_Maple.htm

And paying a little bit more, this: http://www.violinslover.com/OutfitIn.php?I=B2703


Are you saying that getting one of these would disappoint me in terms of how it sounds? Is renting just a flat out better option? What are the advantages/disadvantages? Couldn't I always just buy an inexpensive violin ($100-$200) and then sell it to make 50-60% of my money back when I decide to buy a nicer one?

Or even just buy a Used decent violin in the first place so that when I re-sell it I don't even lose much money if at all?

Thank you so much for your help.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Dave Chandler
Super Member


Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 691
Location: Mt Mitchell in North Carolina

PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 7:26 pm    Post subject: Rent or buy Reply with quote

Playing guitar and violin -- no comparison. The biggest difference is producing a sound that doesn't make everyone within 100 yards want to take out a life insurance policy on you. And without frets, you need a very good ear to play in tune.

It takes a lot of determination to start up the violin. If you're not really committed on spending a reasonable amount for a decent beginner violin ($300 plus), then what are you willing to spend on lessons? The price of the violin might be a small part of the overall investment.
_________________
Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill

"I took the road less travelled, and now I don't know where I am." Marco Polo
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
eveningninja
Junior Member


Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I appreciate your guys' concern, but I am confident in my abilities to learn to play on my own. I have a very good ear. This is the path I've chosen for all the instruments I've learned. I just want to know which violin is decent enough for a beginner, and if renting is really the best option.

So, $300+ ? I can probably manage that if I can borrow some money perhaps. When renting, do your monthly payments go toward the final purchase price if you choose to buy it (if you can)? Which violin models should I look into? Or would it be wisest to shop around locally?

Thank you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Chad48309
Member


Joined: 26 Sep 2010
Posts: 110
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we should hear what you're hoping to get out of self-teaching. If you want to be able to play the violin parts in some of your favorite pop/rock songs (a la Kansas or something), you'll accomplish this well. If you're planning on playing sweeping classical pieces difficult enough for some of the best violinists, desiring to learn the means of interpretation and dynamics that professional players have honed over a lifetime, or wanting to perform well-received recitals, you're going to be very, very disappointed.

No matter what dangerous retards like Rhonda Byrne say, you can't simply wish yourself into perfection. You should have realistic expectations and an understanding that you will never play in a professional orchestra without formal training, years of dedication to the instrument alone, and something of a miracle.

Not that I would deter you from playing. I believe violin is good for everyone, but I also believe realism and practicality is better.

As for the matter of an instrument, this is where a teacher or at least a friend who plays well comes into place. A violin is not a guitar, and there's no clear-cut rules for selecting one. It should suit you, your hand size, your body, your desired sound, etc. Without a thoughtful match to these by a professional player who can advise on this, progress can become slow and uneventful. And please expect to pay a bare minimum of $300 (which would, on the US market, buy you a basic violin for a beginning infant or child).

Please remember that violin playing isn't just learning the notes and practicing technicality. You have to have complete control over every subtle ligament and muscle in both of your hands, not to mention the entire right arm, all working together for the soul purpose of interpreting the music your own way, providing your own color and creating a new, constant dynamic for the entire song to follow. Whereas, with popular guitar playing, the focus is on technicality and muscle memory, the violin is much more a constant mental and physical exercise, the difficulty of which is not to be understated.
_________________
-C.S.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
eveningninja
Junior Member


Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do think what you're saying about having a professional advise my purchase makes sense. But what do you mean match hand size? Wouldn't I be playing a 4/4 full size violin as an adult? Is there more to sizing than that? So you are saying it's not wise to purchase a violin online then?

Thank you!

Also, regarding $300 bare minimum pricing, isn't this a little bit arbitrary? With some violins being overpriced/underpriced.

Thanks again.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Chad48309
Member


Joined: 26 Sep 2010
Posts: 110
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's more to matching a violin to you than hand size (though that is important). All 4/4 violins are not created equal. Some have shallower necks, thicker necks, higher radius, lower radius, etc. All of these things have an impact on your playing style and influence the choice of music you have to play.

For instance, with a loud, high-arched violin with a high-radius fingerboard and bridge, you're probably going to focus more on playing soloist pieces. However, a shallow, quiet, and smooth instrument with lower radius will lend itself nicely to chamber music.

Please do not underestimate how expensive of an instrument violin is. You'd better get comfortable with paying $50+ for a set of strings, not to mention the inevitable investments in chinrests, mutes, shoulder rests, bows, bow rehairs, costly repairs, and a slew of things I'm sure I'm forgetting. The $300 minimum, again, is for the most basic beginner instrument. Overpricing/underpricing are something that can only be determined by your teacher/professional, but the likelihood of finding a decent instrument for less is very slim. Would you expect to find a Gibson or Fender worth its salt for under $100? Same situation. Expect to pay nearly as much for a worthwhile bow.

What about the bow? Is that something you've put thought into? It's the most intimate connection you have with your instrument and is not something to be taken lightly. The reason you see so many amateur violinmakers and nearly no bowmakers is because bowmaking is really, really hard. Expect to pay quite a bit of money for a bow that will produce a decent sound.

And, whatever you do, do not buy a polycarbonate bow. They're a joke. Maybe the technology will improve one day, but right now they don't even hold a candle to a well-constructed wood bow.

It is not wise to purchase any musical instrument online if you care at all how it will sound. The violin and bow are no exception.
_________________
-C.S.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
eveningninja
Junior Member


Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you. I suppose it is different between violins and guitars concerning pricing. The thing is I can play on a $150-$200 guitar and sound great, but that's because I have a nice amp. With violin there is no digital processing Razz

So yeah... you're right, I definitely came into this with too low of a budget to start with. I'll just have to get a job and save up.

So, it all comes back down to... the best thing to do is shop around locally with the help of a professional then, eh?

Thanks.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Lemuel
Site Admin


Joined: 12 Aug 2010
Posts: 515
Location: Mt. Elgin, Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eveningninja,

Your comments and questions are well received and I have a better idea of where you are. From what I gathered, you have already seriously decided to commit the time and money to learn the violin.

Noting that you are a serious guitarist and have a good ear, you would be best starting off buying a quality hand-made beginner’s violin instead of renting. The violins for rent are usually of lower quality.

As Dave and Chad commented, playing the violin is difficult. Many give up in frustration. Although I have no doubts about your ability to learn to play as you say you do, I cannot emphasize enough to find a good teacher to start you off on a good foundation.

Why?

Because a good foundation will bring out the sound potential of the violin you buy. A wrong foundation will bring out those undesirable sounds Dave was talking about no matter how good the violin is. (Since you mentioned that you have a good ear, this will be more than apparent for you Smile .)

Getting more specific to your question of prices and model brands, regular retail prices for good hand-made starter violins start around $300.00 average (bow and case are extra). More than likely they will be made in the Orient such as China or Japan. In the past violins made there have developed a reputation of having an overly excessive nasal sound (akin to plugging your nose and talking).

I have found the violins made by Eastman Strings Inc. to be of excellent value and quality. Their starter model is the Eastman VL080 (MSRP C$289.00 fully setup). Properly setup with bridge, soundpost and strings, the violin responds well, the sound quite brilliant and open (and of course it doesn’t have a plugged nose). I am using these violins for teaching students including my three children.

Before I forget, an improper setup will most definitely impair the sound of any violin. Most of the time, the sound dies or suffocates in higher positions. Should you decide to visit a local shop near you, it would be to your best interest to find a violinist or luthier to go with you. (As Chad mentioned, it is important that you like the sound as well).

Violins purchased should have a trial-period where you can take the violin home, and should you not like it, get 100% refund.

To complete this post, here are answers to your questions on renting.

Disadvantages
- Unrecoverable rental cost, unless the cost can contribute towards the purchase price.
- Cost of renting can easily add up to actual cost of instrument.
- Violins are usually of lower quality.

Advantages
- The initial minimal cash investment is the first as you have mentioned. Costs vary. I have seen them as cheap as $15.00 per month.
- Good for those who are not sure about whether they want to start violin or not.
- You are not responsible for repairs or maintenance to the violin (maybe extra insurance cost depending on rental agreement).
- Usually comes with case and bow.


(Btw, great post Chad, clearly describes the sweat of an aspiring classical violinist).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Chad48309
Member


Joined: 26 Sep 2010
Posts: 110
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent post as well, Lemuel. I'm still not too clear on the ins and outs of rentals, even though I worked in a dang instrument rental shop for a year! Rolling Eyes

eveningninja, I wouldn't discourage you from learning to play. I taught myself as well, for the most part, but I never refused help from an affordable teacher. When you take lessons, you're not signing some kind of cell phone contract; you can take an odd lesson here and there just to keep you on the right track and prevent habits which, while feeling natural, are wholly incorrect.

When I started playing, I knew that there was no way I'd be performing in an orchestra or even playing recitals. However, I learned because violin repair and construction are the passions to which I've decided to dedicate my life, and while it's not necessary that you be a renowned performer for such a career, it certainly helps to know the difference between good and bad tone, and the causes of either.

I recommend starting with the Suzuki books with the Schradieck School books for everyday scales, and whatever you do, do not move forward in them without mastering each lesson at a time. I know they get boring, and I know Row Your Boat is quite possibly the most annoying song ever written, but there's a reason for all of it. The pieces are arranged in such a way as to gradually increase your muscle memory and technical ability on a fixed path.

I would also stress the importance of choosing the right strings. Unless you're playing country fiddle pieces, do NOT use steel-core strings. They are harsh, bright, and scratchy. Not something you want to be playing Bach on. For your first set of strings, I would choose the Thomastik-Infeld Dominant strings. They have a synthetic core, are very forgiving, work well on nearly any instrument, and don't cost as much as many other strings. As you get better, you can experiment this way or that.

I've heard people say Dominants are everything from the second coming of Christ to the worst string ever made. All of these people are sadly mistaken. Dominants are a middle-ground string, and are used as such. They are for people who don't worry about their strings and believe that a good tone starts with their fingers and ends with their brains. Many, many virtuosos choose Dominants as their touring and every-day string, including Hilary Hahn (say what you will, I think the woman's fantastic).

When choosing a bow, pick something that isn't too light and isn't too heavy. Something you feel you can have absolute control over. It should feel like an extension of yourself. Pay particular attention to the tip and how well you can maneuver it and give it the amount of pressure you desire.

I would also pick a medium-color rosin (typically your standard amber) that is of a decent brand. Too often good tone is lost to a terrible rosin, so consider buying the matching Thomastik-Infeld Dominant Rosin to go with your strings. It's a generally safe bet, until you decide you want to lean more toward a soloist or chamber timbre.
_________________
-C.S.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
eveningninja
Junior Member


Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys! Very very helpful posts, I can't stress how appreciative I am.

Let's see... so, I am open to the idea of some violin lessons to get me started. I definitely don't want the whole contract kind of deal, but a lesson or two here and there I'm sure would benefit me.

So... being that you say violin sizing, bow choice, proper setup and what not are so important, how do I go about getting a violinist/luthier to help me choose a violin? I guess I'll have to start off with some lessons from him and arrange a time for purchase? I don't really intend on keeping a teacher for too long (partly due to cost issues) though.

So, it seems like ordering online probably is not the smartest choice then eh?

Thanks again!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Chad48309
Member


Joined: 26 Sep 2010
Posts: 110
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, some places like Shar Music (in my hometown!) let you order a violin and give you time to try it out. If you don't like it, you send it back. That still doesn't help you with finding someone who can demonstrate the violin for you, so if you decide to go that route, I'd still find a local violin / orchestral string store in your area. Band instrument shops can help. Call around, ask which places will do setups and which places have teachers.
_________________
-C.S.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Lemuel
Site Admin


Joined: 12 Aug 2010
Posts: 515
Location: Mt. Elgin, Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eveningninja wrote:
... how do I go about getting a violinist/luthier to help me choose a violin? ...So, it seems like ordering online probably is not the smartest choice then eh?


It's ok to buy online, provided you are ordering from a reputable dealer, one that understands the construction and setup of violins (luthier). The problem is that most if not all beginners can tell whether a dealer is reputable or not.

As mentioned, the violin or violin outfit should have a trial-period with 100% refund, should you decide to return it. Keep in mind the possibility of paying shipping costs both ways.

In regards to finding someone to help you test out violins, the first place to check is the music department of your local university. You will more than likely meet a few violin teachers there. Also every city seems to have a major orchestra (lots of violinists here). The university should be able to put in touch with its coordinator. From there you can find out from the teachers and violinists about the luthiers they contact to service their violins.

If all else fails, you may want to consider trying the Eastman VL80 which can be obtained from us at www.violins.ca. This company was setup by Leif Luscombe now an professional well establish luthier in Canada. We still send all our stringed instruments to him for setup.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
eveningninja
Junior Member


Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys. Very good ideas. I'll definitely be taking a lot of this advice! I hope to be starting my practicing by Christmas Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Violin Forum/Message Board Forum Index -> Introduction, Rules and Suggestions All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group