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Are shoulder rests necessary?
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John Cadd
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The friction material is sold with a warning about varnish. I think they are worrying about French Polish which is fairly soft. Much softer than violin varnish. The material is designed for flat top surfaces of tables and furniture with a high gloss. Rubber clamps on violins make luthier varnish repairs necessary from time to time but only on the edges.
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Lemuel
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I am adapting the collar part for separate use.


What changes have you made here?
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John Cadd
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lemuel , I shall send an e mail to outline the new pattern. The original works fine but if you move away from that design just slightly it starts to rebel and cause trouble. You will see what I mean.
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Lemuel
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AntonPolezhayev wrote:


Yeah, raising a shoulder all the time is no good. But check out these interesting bits:

1- Buy "Ricci on Glissando" if you don't have it already. Best buy in a lifetime. He explains holding without shoulder rest etc. It's really neat to read even if you don't follow his advice.

2- I found that all you really need is a mild "hook" with your chin pressing down on the chinrest slightly when you shift down (to avoid violin falling out), and in fact aside from that there is no need to have contact with your violin with shoulder OR chin... (the way they played in the old days -without touching the violin at all with their head, and even without a chinrest. Great exercise by the way)

3- In some trickier places or during sweat in the heat of performing you sometimes will raise shoulder to get maximum grip, but only for a few seconds.

4- a violin is SUPPOSED to rest in your left hand as you play. The weird feeling of discomfort and inability to play anything at all that way goes away after 2 weeks practice.

There are some great players who use shoulder-rest. But it's not the same. The sound is not the same, posture is not the same, there is no closeness with instrument etc. IMHO


Finally got the "Ricci on Glissando" book last week. Frankly, I am quite astonished with its content. I can see now why you recommend those one finger scales.

One thing bothers me however. On violinist.com forum someone mentioned that Ricci never used any of the glissando techniques he discusses in the book in any of his Paganini recordings. It may not be true of course, who knows.
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AntonPolezhayev
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lemuel wrote:

Finally got the "Ricci on Glissando" book last week. Frankly, I am quite astonished with its content. I can see now why you recommend those one finger scales.

One thing bothers me however. On violinist.com forum someone mentioned that Ricci never used any of the glissando techniques he discusses in the book in any of his Paganini recordings. It may not be true of course, who knows.




Due to practical considerations Ricci and other violinists will not re-learn how to play violin. But certain elements can make their way into your playing (such as less shifting, more vocal fingering, better posture, better sound due to getting rid of shoulder rest etc)


Undergoing a careful study of Ricci's 2 books in the last 2-3 years made a dramatic positive effect on my playing I feel.
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Lemuel
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AntonPolezhayev wrote:

Due to practical considerations Ricci and other violinists will not re-learn how to play violin. But certain elements can make their way into your playing (such as less shifting, more vocal fingering, better posture, better sound due to getting rid of shoulder rest etc)


Undergoing a careful study of Ricci's 2 books in the last 2-3 years made a dramatic positive effect on my playing I feel.



Anton,

Thanks for the helpful tip.

I would appreciate if you could name Ricci's second book that helped you.

In regards to getting rid of shoulder rest, I managed to succeed here after a one month - thankfully no more sores on the collar bone. I must admit it felt like starting all over at first.

With holding the violin more with my left hand and arm (versus the chin on chinrest), there are some music passages with inevitable shifting to higher positions for which my left hand is not as free to move as fast anymore. Is there some element of the violin hold I am still missing?
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AntonPolezhayev
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lemuel wrote:



Anton,

Thanks for the helpful tip.

I would appreciate if you could name Ricci's second book that helped you.

In regards to getting rid of shoulder rest, I managed to succeed here after a one month - thankfully no more sores on the collar bone. I must admit it felt like starting all over at first.

With holding the violin more with my left hand and arm (versus the chin on chinrest), there are some music passages with inevitable shifting to higher positions for which my left hand is not as free to move as fast anymore. Is there some element of the violin hold I am still missing?




It's really cool that you switched to no-shoulder rest.

The other book is Left Hand Violin Technique. It's a collection of some intermediate and mostly advanced and some very advanced exercises. Even for a top level player that book takes months to play cleanly. But the rewards are amazing. I studied it for about 45-60 minutes daily for a few months in addition to my other practice.


Switching to no-shoulder rest is a gradual process, it will be months and even years until you're 100% comfortable and natural. Give it time.
Practicing shifting drills helps. For example, you know those typical exercises for shifting where you play something like this: Only on A-string play using only 1st finger a note B in 1st position, shift to C in second position (all with only 1st finger), then back to B in 1st position, then go to D in third position, back to B, then E in 4th position etc etc etc. Go ALL the way up to 7th position or higher all on A-string and all with only 1st finger. Perform this drill daily, increase tempo and intonation accuracy. Try playing it in 16th notes, really fast. This will force you to learn how to shift quickly.
And practice 3 and 4-octave scales and arpeggios from sources like Flesch Scale book or Hrimaly. Do it daily, even if you're really busy, do at least 30 minutes. Consistency is key.

Also, a slight raising of the left shoulder just for a few moments in difficult passages is ok, you can also lean back a bit and lower the violin just a bit which will then get your chest and front delt help support the violin just for a few difficult moments. Sometimes you see virtuosos lean back like that, and above is the reason why they do it, they are trying not to lose the violin which may be slipping out due to sweat and multiple fast shifts Smile
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Lemuel
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Anton,

Just want to thank you for your encouragement and the name of the Ricci's other book. I will try to get it right away.

I was also going to ask you about the left shoulder and the height of the violin, but you answered it already.

In regards to the shift practice, do you practice shifting with the way Ricci describes the violin hold in the "Ricci on Glissando" book, the part about the left wrist against the violin ribs? I would then be shifting from backward extension, right?

Do you also have anything that has significantly helped your bowing technique, especially those variety of different staccatos, spicatto and sautille.
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AntonPolezhayev
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lemuel wrote:
Dear Anton,

Just want to thank you for your encouragement and the name of the Ricci's other book. I will try to get it right away.

I was also going to ask you about the left shoulder and the height of the violin, but you answered it already.

In regards to the shift practice, do you practice shifting with the way Ricci describes the violin hold in the "Ricci on Glissando" book, the part about the left wrist against the violin ribs? I would then be shifting from backward extension, right?

Do you also have anything that has significantly helped your bowing technique, especially those variety of different staccatos, spicatto and sautille.



Practice BOTH shifting methods. This way you will have more ammo when you play.

When learning strokes the right hand tends to respond just like left hand does. Slow tempo and gradually increasing the tempo is key.
I also like Ricci's DVD about right hand techniques that comes with one of those 2 books of his.
Daily scales, arpeggios, double stops and chords should be practiced not just legato but also using various strokes and bowing patterns, rhythms and string crossings. One of the keys to mastering strokes is doing them thousands/millions of times and thus finding comfort, control, relaxation, and "auto-pilot".

Hrimaly and Flesch write out strokes for their scales, I like that.

Also, Turchaninova (Vengerov's teacher before he left for Bron) always made us play everything on the string, and only after it was perfect we'd switch to bouncing or other strokes.

Another key to strokes is that you have to look for them individually. Everyone's arm and bow is different, so we have to change parts of bow we play at, change pressure, experiment constantly to find what works and what doesn't work for us.

In my personal playing and teaching experience as well as based on what my teachers and colleagues observed in our conversations and while playing the failures at various strikes are most often due to stiffness in the right hand and arm, spreading of the right hand fingers (which stiffens the hand and kills the vibrations of the bow) and failure to have a flexible, soft and springing wrist and hand.
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Lemuel
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Practice BOTH shifting methods. This way you will have more ammo when you play....Another key to strokes is that you have to look for them individually. Everyone's arm and bow is different, so we have to change parts of bow we play at, change pressure, experiment constantly to find what works and what doesn't work for us.


Quote:
...thus finding comfort, control, relaxation, and "auto-pilot"....have a flexible, soft and springing wrist and hand.


Thanks Anton for the big picture. I guess there are many techniques out there - but whatever works should be adopted.

The bonus DVD on bowing technique at the back of the "Glissando" book was most interesting indeed! Normally one would expect a DVD demonstrating the contents of the book.

Do you know of any videos demonstrating the contents of Ricc's left hand and glissando technique?
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Lemuel
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AntonPolezhayev wrote:
For example, you know those typical exercises for shifting where you play something like this: Only on A-string play using only 1st finger a note B in 1st position, shift to C in second position (all with only 1st finger), then back to B in 1st position, then go to D in third position, back to B, then E in 4th position etc etc etc. Go ALL the way up to 7th position or higher all on A-string and all with only 1st finger. Perform this drill daily, increase tempo and intonation accuracy. Try playing it in 16th notes, really fast. This will force you to learn how to shift quickly.


It's kind of a block to me to keep the thumb in fixed position in glissando technique, as the shift interval and tempo increases.

(My children also thought there was a police car nearby as I was playing these shifts on one stroke). Smile


I thought I would open a new thread for discussion of Ricci's technique. I've reposted the above at http://www.violins.ca/forums/viewtopic.php?p=8166#8166
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AntonPolezhayev
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lemuel wrote:
Quote:
Practice BOTH shifting methods. This way you will have more ammo when you play....Another key to strokes is that you have to look for them individually. Everyone's arm and bow is different, so we have to change parts of bow we play at, change pressure, experiment constantly to find what works and what doesn't work for us.


Quote:
...thus finding comfort, control, relaxation, and "auto-pilot"....have a flexible, soft and springing wrist and hand.


Thanks Anton for the big picture. I guess there are many techniques out there - but whatever works should be adopted.

The bonus DVD on bowing technique at the back of the "Glissando" book was most interesting indeed! Normally one would expect a DVD demonstrating the contents of the book.

Do you know of any videos demonstrating the contents of Ricc's left hand and glissando technique?




I've not seen Ricci's instructional DVDs aside from the bowing one.

Would be cool thou, the man was a beast. My old-timer colleagues used to tell me how he (Ricci) walked around with that thing you squeeze with your hand to improve finger and grip strength, he constantly squeezed it while just walking on the street they say lol.
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