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Ruggiero Ricci on violin technique

 
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Lemuel
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:47 pm    Post subject: Ruggiero Ricci on violin technique Reply with quote

AntonPolezhayev wrote:
For example, you know those typical exercises for shifting where you play something like this: Only on A-string play using only 1st finger a note B in 1st position, shift to C in second position (all with only 1st finger), then back to B in 1st position, then go to D in third position, back to B, then E in 4th position etc etc etc. Go ALL the way up to 7th position or higher all on A-string and all with only 1st finger. Perform this drill daily, increase tempo and intonation accuracy. Try playing it in 16th notes, really fast. This will force you to learn how to shift quickly.


It gets difficult to keep the thumb in fixed position in glissando technique, as the shift interval and tempo increases. Or is it just a matter of getting used to a fixed thumb position? There is also tension on the back hand muscles near the index finger as I glissando back to the first position (winding up in backward extension). The faster the tempo, the quicker the tension.

Since this is all new territory to me, I do not know whether this is normal or some misapplication of technique.



(My children also thought there was a police car nearby as I was playing these shifts on one stroke). Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry in advance for very lengthy response. But it's a rather big subject to discuss.

The shifting drill I described is better suited for regular (modern) traditional shifting. You can definitely full around with the ancient-style shifting described in Ricci's book as well thou.


Movements of the thumb are totally fine.
Mine moves all the time in every imaginable way haha.
Avoid any kind of stiffness, the freer the better. When you shift think of your hand and violin neck as you being on ice while wearing regular shoes being totally unable to stand and slipping and falling all the time non-stop Smile Every part of your hand should be loose and moving gently around the neck of the violin, minimum pressure! No tension.


Also, you gotta remember that Ricci's ideas are not fully doable with regards to 1st position since the neck of the violin has become longer, one basically can't vibrate or play quickly in first position that way by leaning back.
With the modern violin and with our absolute need for vibrato and fast passages in 1st position this day and age we MUST use 1st position, a real 1st position, not by leaning back to it (well maybe occasionally you can lean back if you like). It is when you go to higher positions is when Ricci has a great point, we simply don't need to be shifting THAT much is what Ricci is trying to say. I remember reading technique books that claim when we play octaves we must shift on every note... This is crazy. After about 4th position I hardly ever shift further up in octaves or anything else, just a slight curve of my wrist while my hand actually stays down there in the 4th position area.
I think the blend of what Ricci wrote about and the modern technique is ideal.

Check out my silly video response to those "Guinness book violin speed record' scam artists Very Happy I know that was mean, but come on, have they ever heard Kavakos play 5th Paganini caprice? He blows their "record" away, anyway my friends asked me to upload it... I will re-upload sometime soon a cleaner version after I practice more and get my good violin and bow back from repairs. But watch the thumb and shifts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qva7ExJMGQ

The thumb is constantly moving, there is no tension, I never think about the thumb, and there are some traditional shifts, and some Ricci's stretches and leans. just a combination of whatever is easiest and most natural is best IMO.


Quick example of Ricci's advice in action:
- Let's say you're playing a piece that has the following notes in 3rd position on A-string: f# with 3rd finger, e with second finger, and d with 1st finger. Then the next note down is c# or even a c natural still on the A-string. Traditional wisdom tells us we must shift to 1st or second position to play that c. Not so says Ricci and Niccolo Paganini! Simply lean back and play c with 1st finger as if it was a really low D in 3rd position. Done Smile You just did less work, no shift! This kind of thing happens ALL the time.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AntonPolezhayev wrote:
Also, you gotta remember that Ricci's ideas are not fully doable with regards to 1st position since the neck of the violin has become longer, one basically can't vibrate or play quickly in first position that way by leaning back.


An even bigger perspective, thank you.

If pictures are a thousand words, video demonstrations are a million words. I looked at your clip on playing the “Flight on the Bumblebee” about a couple dozen times, especially around the shifting. First of all, I think your playing is just awesome.

It appears that you are playing with modern technique only.

1. Straight line from back of left hand to elbow (as oppose to backward extension), whenever shifting up or down (4th to 1st to 4th to 1st….)
2. Fingers quite high above the fingerboard, playing with finger tips (as oppose to playing on the pads of your fingers).
3. Thumb quite active as you say and high, even out sometimes (as oppose to stationary thumb and pad of thumb on neck).

I could not help but notice that your whole left arm and hand appeared very free to move up and down, while the violin stayed suspended in the air under your chin - something I could do only if I had the help of the shoulder rest. I also noticed that your left elbow is pretty close to your rib cage. Although I am not using the shoulder rest anymore, my violin is not raised as high as yours. This could be because my arm is not as long as yours.

Quote:
Quick example of Ricci's advice in action:
- Let's say you're playing a piece that has the following notes in 3rd position on A-string: f# with 3rd finger, e with second finger, and d with 1st finger. Then the next note down is c# or even a c natural still on the A-string. Traditional wisdom tells us we must shift to 1st or second position to play that c. Not so says Ricci and Niccolo Paganini! Simply lean back and play c with 1st finger as if it was a really low D in 3rd position. Done Smile You just did less work, no shift! This kind of thing happens ALL the time.


Yes, my violin teacher told me this also and to take advantage of sliding the finger on the seminotes. I had no idea up until now that this is what Ricci is calling the 'glissando' technique.
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AntonPolezhayev
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lemuel wrote:


An even bigger perspective, thank you.

If pictures are a thousand words, video demonstrations are a million words. I looked at your clip on playing the “Flight on the Bumblebee” about a couple dozen times, especially around the shifting. First of all, I think your playing is just awesome.

It appears that you are playing with modern technique only.

1. Straight line from back of left hand to elbow (as oppose to backward extension), whenever shifting up or down (4th to 1st to 4th to 1st….)
2. Fingers quite high above the fingerboard, playing with finger tips (as oppose to playing on the pads of your fingers).
3. Thumb quite active as you say and high, even out sometimes (as oppose to stationary thumb and pad of thumb on neck).

I could not help but notice that your whole left arm and hand appeared very free to move up and down, while the violin stayed suspended in the air under your chin - something I could do only if I had the help of the shoulder rest. I also noticed that your left elbow is pretty close to your rib cage. Although I am not using the shoulder rest anymore, my violin is not raised as high as yours. This could be because my arm is not as long as yours.



Yes, my violin teacher told me this also and to take advantage of sliding the finger on the seminotes. I had no idea up until now that this is what Ricci is calling the 'glissando' technique.



Thank you Lemuel.

The violin is slightly supported by the left hand at all times. If I was to let go and put my left arm down by my side I would not be able to hold the violin up without a shoulder rest either. (The exception is the rare trick you can sometimes use that I described earlier, where you can lean back and bump your chest up so that the violin rests on your chest... Not a position you want to stay in longer than about 2 seconds haha)


All of this means you obviously have to have "French polish" under the neck of your violin for easy smooth shifting, you will have to avoid sweat, and have a non-slippery chinrest with some sort of a bump/hump.

We have to remember that some of these people like Ricci and others are not entirely human. For example, Heifetz didn't sweat. At all... Did you know that? That is not normal, but the fact is he simply didn't sweat, ever, that means no slipping, no need for shoulder rest etc. Most mortals can't do what he did, for example, most people's sweat would cause the real gut A string to break quickly Sad So there goes the nice sound... one of my students has the kind of skin, oil, and sweat that basically sticks to ANY string making it impossible for him to shift... The acid of his skin also makes strings break in days... he destroys the winding of the Dominants strings in hours...

By the way, you know any remedy to that? I heard a few, looking for more info. Acid skin...
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Mat Roop
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AntonPolezhayev wrote:
....By the way, you know any remedy to that? I heard a few, looking for more info. Acid skin...

Try Vision Titanium...
Cheers, Mat
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AntonPolezhayev wrote:


The violin is slightly supported by the left hand at all times. If I was to let go and put my left arm down by my side I would not be able to hold the violin up without a shoulder rest either. (The exception is the rare trick you can sometimes use that I described earlier, where you can lean back and bump your chest up so that the violin rests on your chest... Not a position you want to stay in longer than about 2 seconds haha)


I'm also referring to your quote from the shoulder rest thread http://www.violins.ca/forums/viewtopic.php?t=799&start=75

Quote:


And practice 3 and 4-octave scales and arpeggios from sources like Flesch Scale book or Hrimaly. Do it daily, even if you're really busy, do at least 30 minutes. Consistency is key.

Also, a slight raising of the left shoulder just for a few moments in difficult passages is ok, you can also lean back a bit and lower the violin just a bit which will then get your chest and front delt help support the violin just for a few difficult moments. Sometimes you see virtuosos lean back like that, and above is the reason why they do it, they are trying not to lose the violin which may be slipping out due to sweat and multiple fast shifts


I tried some 4-octave A-minor arpeggios, but it is at the 4th octave I am not to sure what to do with my left arm, thumb and hand. There seems to be two ways to take.

1. Wait until my 1st finger lands on E and octave above open E, lean back, lower the violin to get my chest and front delt to help support the violin, move the left elbow more in front of me, shift my 1st finger to A and then finish the 4th octave. (I find this mult-step process slows me down).

2. By the end of the 1st octave where the 1st finger shifts into A on the D string, my left arm and elbow is brought more in front of me, the upper part of my thumb is touching the neck, prepared for the remaining three octaves.

To bring in your music for illustration,

It appears on your video clip (Bumblebee) that in high positions the neck of your violin is pretty well rested in the cradle of your left hand and the lowest joint on your hand is touching the neck as you are playing the last couple of measures.

What would be the position of your left arm, thumb and hand if you were to continue unto the last octave in the key? So since the Bumblebee ends on A, how would you continue the chromatic climb to the last A on the 4th octave?


It appears the condition of excessive sweating is called hyperhidrosis - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperhidrosis. I don't know of any cure for this. Perhaps some research may come up with natural remedies.
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AntonPolezhayev
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lemuel wrote:


I tried some 4-octave A-minor arpeggios, but it is at the 4th octave I am not to sure what to do with my left arm, thumb and hand. There seems to be two ways to take.

1. Wait until my 1st finger lands on E and octave above open E, lean back, lower the violin to get my chest and front delt to help support the violin, move the left elbow more in front of me, shift my 1st finger to A and then finish the 4th octave. (I find this mult-step process slows me down).

2. By the end of the 1st octave where the 1st finger shifts into A on the D string, my left arm and elbow is brought more in front of me, the upper part of my thumb is touching the neck, prepared for the remaining three octaves.

To bring in your music for illustration,

It appears on your video clip (Bumblebee) that in high positions the neck of your violin is pretty well rested in the cradle of your left hand and the lowest joint on your hand is touching the neck as you are playing the last couple of measures.

What would be the position of your left arm, thumb and hand if you were to continue unto the last octave in the key? So since the Bumblebee ends on A, how would you continue the chromatic climb to the last A on the 4th octave?




There are various methods and schools of thought on this subject (shifting)

Many sources claim thumb must move first, many others such as Ricci himself tell their students to follow the finger with their hand (finger moves first ahead of hand and thumb, hand follows the finger)
It varies from person to person.

Some people shift like a trombone player (everything moves together - hand, thumb, finger). I play that way mostly. In higher positions when shifting up I tend to start moving my thumb and hand just a bit earlier. This is what I'd do for Bumblebee if it went an octave higher at the end. So I guess your #2 option is closer to what I'd do.

I think one should casually try all methods and find what is most comfortable for him/her self.

No-shoulder rest means violin tends to sometimes dip down as one shifts. So, try to shift lighter, gliding smoothly under the violin (I hope you got smooth neck, strings and fingerboard), in fact to keep violin straight one may need to almost toss it up slightly with the left hand just before the shift so that the violin will remain up as the hand shifts under it to new position.


The leaning back thing is only really used when doing extreme shifts downward while covered in sweat causing the violin to slip out...
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anton,

First of all, thank you for taking the time to write. I really appreciate it.

I looked at some video clips of Leonidas Kavakos's playing. It appears that the upper part of his thumb (not near the cradle of the hand) is brought under and is in constant contact with the neck of the violin whether in low or high positions. This seems to allow the whole arm to be in place all the time (one does not have to move the left elbow more in front when moving into high positions).

The "Ricci on Glissando" book seems to show more of the upper thumb pad being in contact with the neck of the violin at all times. But in the case of Kavakos playing, the thumb would not be in fixed position.

Is this one other method you have come across as well? I guess, I am just trying to gather as much information as I can before I start to develop new habits.

I also noticed that he does not seem to lean back or toss the violin up at all when shifting downwards or upwards. I'm wondering if he uses a shoulder pad or rest of some sort.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lemuel wrote:
Anton,

First of all, thank you for taking the time to write. I really appreciate it.

I looked at some video clips of Leonidas Kavakos's playing. It appears that the upper part of his thumb (not near the cradle of the hand) is brought under and is in constant contact with the neck of the violin whether in low or high positions. This seems to allow the whole arm to be in place all the time (one does not have to move the left elbow more in front when moving into high positions).

The "Ricci on Glissando" book seems to show more of the upper thumb pad being in contact with the neck of the violin at all times. But in the case of Kavakos playing, the thumb would not be in fixed position.

Is this one other method you have come across as well? I guess, I am just trying to gather as much information as I can before I start to develop new habits.

I also noticed that he does not seem to lean back or toss the violin up at all when shifting downwards or upwards. I'm wondering if he uses a shoulder pad or rest of some sort.




Some strictly personal and humble thoughts and opinions: (sorry for length)

Kavakos is using a Kun shoulder rest as well as anti-slip cloth, low bridge and very slippery easy to shift Eva strings.


So in his case he doesn't need to lean back to avoid violin slipping out, to toss the violin up for big fast shifts, or to have the violin laying deeply in his left hand at all times. Basically what I'm saying is that Kavakos can do ANYTHING with regards to shifting, and still be secure.


In fact theoretically if one's shoulder rest would somehow be made secure enough and strings low and sleek enough one can probably play without thumb or touching the violin with left hand at all Very Happy just fingers falling from the top...


The hefty price Kavakos is paying for this "technique, safety, and comfort comes first" approach is his sound. Recently a student of mine heard him and commented that there was absolutely no sound coming out at all (obviously due to tightness of Eva strings choking the violin's upper deck, the cloth around his neck absorbing the sound, and the shoulder rest squeezing and killing the vibrations of the lower deck).
I have played as member of Kirov and New York Phil orchestras sitting 2 feet away from kovakos as he played Brahms concerto and Barber. I had the same instant first impression: "He is hitting more notes than almost anyone in history of violin playing, but I hear NOTHING". All it takes is a bit of bad acoustics and your sound is gone with his approach. I respect his decision, he knows what he wants. But to me sound comes first. So I'd gladly play some notes out of tune without shoulder rest, easy strings or cloths if it means better sound.


In short, what I'm getting at is I have seen Kavakos shift like a trombone, and thumb first as well, and reaching, I have seen his thumb in various positions. Shifting is easy with shoulder rest. Shoulder rest users don't have to go thru the discussion we're having. But the passage way into immortality is forever shut to them. Only those who embrace the natural original intended way of playing the violin (gut strings, no shoulder rest etc) will stand the test of time. Kreilser, Hassid, Heifetz, Enescu etc. I'd much rather imitate them, even if it means more work Smile Synthetic strings, carbon fiber bows, and shoulder pads just don't have the sound/tone. It's interesting for example that Heifetz used gut E for recordings... That's how much he wanted a real genuine violin tone with overtones and all. Even at the expense of difficult shifting and worse intonation. But now I have strayed too far from the topic, sorry.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AntonPolezhayev wrote:
...
The hefty price Kavakos is paying for this "technique, safety, and comfort comes first" approach is his sound. Recently a student of mine heard him and commented that there was absolutely no sound coming out at all (obviously due to tightness of Eva strings choking the violin's upper deck, the cloth around his neck absorbing the sound, and the shoulder rest squeezing and killing the vibrations of the lower deck).
I have played as member of Kirov and New York Phil orchestras sitting 2 feet away from kovakos as he played Brahms concerto and Barber. I had the same instant first impression: "He is hitting more notes than almost anyone in history of violin playing, but I hear NOTHING". All it takes is a bit of bad acoustics and your sound is gone with his approach. I respect his decision, he knows what he wants. But to me sound comes first. So I'd gladly play some notes out of tune without shoulder rest, easy strings or cloths if it means better sound.


In short, what I'm getting at is I have seen Kavakos shift like a trombone, and thumb first as well, and reaching, I have seen his thumb in various positions. Shifting is easy with shoulder rest. Shoulder rest users don't have to go thru the discussion we're having. But the passage way into immortality is forever shut to them. Only those who embrace the natural original intended way of playing the violin (gut strings, no shoulder rest etc) will stand the test of time. Kreilser, Hassid, Heifetz, Enescu etc. I'd much rather imitate them, even if it means more work Smile Synthetic strings, carbon fiber bows, and shoulder pads just don't have the sound/tone. It's interesting for example that Heifetz used gut E for recordings... That's how much he wanted a real genuine violin tone with overtones and all. Even at the expense of difficult shifting and worse intonation. But now I have strayed too far from the topic, sorry.


You are telling me some pretty surprising things here. Very informative. (Your posts are not too long, but too short Smile )

Ok, I have more questions to ask you. However I am going to leave them for later. I've been rereading your posts and looking at your video clip again and again, and trying myself different ways to slide and shift. So I'll take some additional time to digest it all.

I didn't realize you were so close in touch with the professional community. I am happy and feel privileged to be corresponding with you. Thank you.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AntonPolezhayev wrote:
...
So in his case he doesn't need to lean back to avoid violin slipping out, to toss the violin up for big fast shifts, or to have the violin laying deeply in his left hand at all times. Basically what I'm saying is that Kavakos can do ANYTHING with regards to shifting, and still be secure.

In fact theoretically if one's shoulder rest would somehow be made secure enough and strings low and sleek enough one can probably play without thumb or touching the violin with left hand at all Very Happy just fingers falling from the top...

The hefty price Kavakos is paying for this "technique, safety, and comfort comes first" approach is his sound. Recently a student of mine heard him and commented that there was absolutely no sound coming out at all (obviously due to tightness of Eva strings choking the violin's upper deck, the cloth around his neck absorbing the sound, and the shoulder rest squeezing and killing the vibrations of the lower deck).
I have played as member of Kirov and New York Phil orchestras sitting 2 feet away from kovakos as he played Brahms concerto and Barber. I had the same instant first impression: "He is hitting more notes than almost anyone in history of violin playing, but I hear NOTHING". All it takes is a bit of bad acoustics and your sound is gone with his approach. I respect his decision, he knows what he wants. But to me sound comes first. So I'd gladly play some notes out of tune without shoulder rest, easy strings or cloths if it means better sound.

In short, what I'm getting at is I have seen Kavakos shift like a trombone, and thumb first as well, and reaching, I have seen his thumb in various positions. Shifting is easy with shoulder rest. Shoulder rest users don't have to go thru the discussion we're having.....


Dear Anton,

Although I feel quite comfortable playing now without shoulder rest, it is the FAST shifting to higher positions that I am insecure about, having some doubts about the correct approach. Looking in the mirror, I am rotating the left hand clockwise, while moving the left elbow more in front of me. The faster the shift, the more the violin moves in a buck or jerk like fashion. How about if there are repeated fast shifts (like last variation of Sarasate's Caprice Basque)?

Are there other principles of fast shifting to help make it easier?

Also my vibrato is not as wide and rapid when playing without the shoulder rest (causing the violin also to move).

(One of these days, I should come and get a few lessons from you).
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lemuel wrote:


Dear Anton,

Although I feel quite comfortable playing now without shoulder rest, it is the FAST shifting to higher positions that I am insecure about, having some doubts about the correct approach. Looking in the mirror, I am rotating the left hand clockwise, while moving the left elbow more in front of me. The faster the shift, the more the violin moves in a buck or jerk like fashion. How about if there are repeated fast shifts (like last variation of Sarasate's Caprice Basque)?

Are there other principles of fast shifting to help make it easier?

Also my vibrato is not as wide and rapid when playing without the shoulder rest (causing the violin also to move).

(One of these days, I should come and get a few lessons from you).




Hello Lemuel,

You're right, obviously it's hard to give opinion without hearing and seeing you play, but generally shifts should be SLOW no matter what the tempo of the piece is. Even in fastest passages shifts should be as slow as possible without compromising the rhythm. This increases accuracy by making the shift easier. Smooth slow shifting is key.

Vibrato should be narrow, this is very important. One of the tragedies of modern singing and string playing is widening of the vibrato. Think of Cecilia Bartolli's vibrato... a dramatic mistake and pity Sad Never should have happened. It's too wide. Certainly that is just my opinion, but I'm far from alone in holding it.
You may find that with narrow vibrato your speed of it may thus increase easier.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AntonPolezhayev wrote:

Hello Lemuel,

You're right, obviously it's hard to give opinion without hearing and seeing you play, but generally shifts should be SLOW no matter what the tempo of the piece is. Even in fastest passages shifts should be as slow as possible without compromising the rhythm. This increases accuracy by making the shift easier. Smooth slow shifting is key.

Vibrato should be narrow, this is very important. One of the tragedies of modern singing and string playing is widening of the vibrato. Think of Cecilia Bartolli's vibrato... a dramatic mistake and pity Sad Never should have happened. It's too wide. Certainly that is just my opinion, but I'm far from alone in holding it.
You may find that with narrow vibrato your speed of it may thus increase easier.


Hmmm...doesn't faster tempo require faster shifting? You mentioned that Kavakos doesn't have to lean back to avoid violin slipping out, to toss the violin up for big fast shifts. Without the shoulder rest, I feel the insecurity (i.e. feels like violin will slip out).

Yes, vibrato should be narrow - however without shoulder rest, my vibrato seems too narrow.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lemuel wrote:
AntonPolezhayev wrote:

Hello Lemuel,

You're right, obviously it's hard to give opinion without hearing and seeing you play, but generally shifts should be SLOW no matter what the tempo of the piece is. Even in fastest passages shifts should be as slow as possible without compromising the rhythm. This increases accuracy by making the shift easier. Smooth slow shifting is key.

Vibrato should be narrow, this is very important. One of the tragedies of modern singing and string playing is widening of the vibrato. Think of Cecilia Bartolli's vibrato... a dramatic mistake and pity Sad Never should have happened. It's too wide. Certainly that is just my opinion, but I'm far from alone in holding it.
You may find that with narrow vibrato your speed of it may thus increase easier.


Hmmm...doesn't faster tempo require faster shifting? You mentioned that Kavakos doesn't have to lean back to avoid violin slipping out, to toss the violin up for big fast shifts. Without the shoulder rest, I feel the insecurity (i.e. feels like violin will slip out).

Yes, vibrato should be narrow - however without shoulder rest, my vibrato seems too narrow.




Basically shifts should be as smooth and as slow as possible without sacrificing the (fast) tempo or rhythm. During shifts gentle crawling instead of jerky jumping will help stabilize the violin.

Learning to shift and vibrate without a shoulder rest takes months and even years to fully adopt to.
But if it's good enough for Paganini, Heifetz and Kreilser, it's good enough for us too.
And of course violin will move with you as you play, it's ok.
To help at least minimize the movement of violin try to point violin at some spot on a wall and then shift without the head of the violin moving (much) Or even gently put violin head against the wall (violin thus being gently held between you and the wall) and get a feel of how your hand has to curve around the neck as you shift. Practice shifts slowly. They will stabilize. Takes time, that's all.

I have never heard a too narrow vibrato. If anything it sounds like a good thing Smile
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