Violin Forum/Message Board

[Mat Roop]

Thanks Michael... great advice... Mat

[John Cadd]

When you emphasised that the ends should not be rounded it felt as though you had disagreed with other repairers on the subject. Is there a private war between luthiers that we don`t hear about ?
If a luthier used some cling film and a spot of resin putty (just a tiny bit ) to get a perfect fit would that save the soundholes getting battered . Obviously the cling film would be removed . Also same question could be asked about the bridge fitting. There is a film of varnish under a bridge . Maybe soft thick varnish . You see where it all leads ?
Using resin putty could give a nice shape to copy which would be a good reference for future fits . Each end needs two plane angles , top to bottom and left to right. How many adjuster screws would be needed if you made a metal box to clamp a soundpost in position and ensure the best fit .
Overall from your viewpoint there must seem to be a technical gap in luthiery that needs closing . ( Coffee is for closers .)

[Michael Darnton]

The idea of rounded ends isn't something that comes up among pros--it's one of those things that's often suggested by amateurs looking for an easy way out. The same with beveling the ends of the post to avoid gouging.

The idea of making substitute surfaces as you are suggesting is in the same vein: you could come close, but never close enough. The entire arch changes as weather changes, as the post is pulled into place, as string pressure is cranked up, and over time. The shape of the arch directly under the bridge feet changes when instruments are strung up and after the initial fitting I often find myself making small alterations at the end of the process both over the bass bar (at the outer end of the feet, usually) and near the post where the post presses upwards more on one side of the bridge than the other resulting in a twist from side to side to the bridge fit. This one, the twist, has tonal consequences, especially on cellos.

In extreme situations of a very flexible top this can change the fit of the post as well. The other day we had a cello (famous-maker British, c 1780) with such a flexible back that it changed quite a bit as the instrument was strung up, resulting in a loose, non-fitting post. The person who set it up didn't find this because this isn't something that usually happens, so you're not looking for it--I discovered it when I was doing adjustments, later: it sounded like a loose post and when I pulled on it, it was. You only can find these things if you are constantly checking your work with the idea that everything could have gone totally wrong behind your back, and you have a history so you know what's right from how things feel. This kind of wariness and awareness isn't something you get from a book.

The bottom line: "no" to shortcuts if you want to be doing first quality work.

I don't think there's a technical gap. There is, however, an information gap in that the internet and publications can only go so far in communicating what we do and how we accomplish it. When I started in the business I though I knew everything because I thought that I had read everything written about the topic. The first thing I discovered that I'd found only a tiny bit of what had been written--a good shop library has tens of shelving feet of publications. The second was that 95+% of what happens has never been written because it's too subtle in some respects and also because 1:1 training is a much more efficient process.

Training someone is this work is not only communicating the facts of the work but also training their eyes to see things they don't walk in the door being able to see and their mind to consider situations they never considered. For instance, I've written several times about the twisting problem from post pressure, so that's out there. Do you remember ever seeing it? If you were fitting bridges next to me it would be one of the things I might have to remind you of a couple of times---there's a lot to think of when you are learning. And I would be able to show you how to directly see this, but not here, now. When I first did a neck graft, within a month or two of starting, as I was carving the neck every time someone walked by me they would point out a lump or two I wasn't seeing. At first I thought it was their imagination, then I started to see it.

Now I have to do the same, training in my own shop. Sometimes people proudly put up photos of their repair work on the web. They honestly have no idea how bad it is, usually so bad that no one even wants to start the discussion and if someone does, the "victim" usually immediately goes into anger/defensive mode because obviously he doesn't see any problems. This wouldn't happen in a shop, but on the web it's best to just shut up rather than get in a fight. This is happening right now on another site where some grossly incompetent work has just been offered up as God's gift to violins and a long running discussion just suddenly went completely dead. The person who did the work will never know what just happened, where training someone in a shop you just couldn't let something like that pass.

Please don't take all this the wrong way. I'm just trying to point out that there is much more to this work than people on the outside can realize.
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[Michael Darnton]

Tacking on another thought relative to the repair work on another site that I just mentioned above: now there are a whole bunch of people who will do a search, go see that work, think that's how it's done, and will use that as their model of good work. The internet has just become a source of serious misinformation in that regard, and I'm betting it won't be corrected. This is extremely common.
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[John Cadd]

Thankyou Mr Darnton for such a frank glimpse into the world of luthiers . Respect for that . The psychology of what happens on forums is something for a University Phd . That`s apart from such a complicated subject .
Just on a technical point about rotating a soundpost to check the fit. Is there a better post setter pattern to minimise contact with the sound hole edges ? Some makers had quite wide holes but Strad `s were on the narrow side . I was thinking of the way it`s held and rotated . What kind of rotation angle ? That sort of thing . Also where would the squeezing come into it . Is it a job for large strong hands ? Does the squeezing involve both top and back plates ? The sides should not be pressed in I would guess. Just the plate(s) edge(s) .
It quickly gets very complicated .
I got out of touch with violins in the last few years as my hearing went down rapidly but this is still fascinating stuff .

[Michael Darnton]

I've never had a post setter I could use without a lot of grinding. When either end is in the violin, you should be able to spin it all the way around in place, meaning only the handle part and the hooks should be wider than about 4mm, and all of the edges need to be rounded off. On a new setter it can take quite a lot of grinder time.

I squeeze diagonally, thumb on the edge of the top, fingers away from me on the edge of the back. On a viola I put my whole hand over the top and squeeze the top edges. On a cello, I reach over and press the lower bout against my body. If you press on the ribs at all you WILL break one.

I use the setter left handed, and teach my students to do the same. When you are starting it's clumsy either way, but left handed means you aren't working back handed with your arms crossed in front of you, so it's a LOT easier in the long run, so it is well worth learning to do it lefty style.
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[John Cadd]

Priceless description of the adjustment hold .
Just to give you a nightmare I had tried another version of the end adjusters seen with plastic products . This was mating a rounded spruce post end with a boxwood piece. The boxwood was drilled into the end grain making a shallow dip. I filed the drill to make a semi spherical hollow. The boxwood was held in a vice and the rounded post was burnished in the hollow. Then the boxwood was cut down to give the same diameter. Finally the boxwood piece was sawn off . I was aiming at a very thin ,light end piece with a flat surface .
I have not tested this and maybe the boxwood may not be strong enough . But it avoids plastic .
I have not worked out how the movable ends would be attached apart from four loose pieces of cotton held with super glue .
Edited here to improve the way to attach the "end caps" of the post .
3M Micropore surgical tape (about £1 ) Half an inch wide will hold the ends in place. It is quite stretchy and ideal to keep the 3 parts together .
In this case measure the length at the post centre . look to keep the central part of the end caps as thin as possible. All the work then takes place outside the violin and a Gemini can place the post easily without needing any twisting .

[Mat Roop]

[Michael Darnton]

No. This is not normal.
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[John Cadd]

A padded clamp would give a safer ,more controllable grip. We have to assume all the contortions are while the strings are attached and tuned up . It`s clever without a clamp until something slips and then suddenly not so clever at all . Testing a clamp on a very cheap violin would allow some way to measure the controlled distortion needed for the adjustment.
If there is a loud bang with half a turn of the clamp adjuster , then only use 1/4 turn next time .

[John Cadd]

Matt Roop What did the word "Tipped" mean in the double bass soundpost ?
Just to avoid any confusion .

[John Cadd]

If the soundpost is not making perfect contact at either end the resulting contact line could run diagonally (left to right ) and diagonally (top to bottom. Working out how many soundpost setters are sold , there must be many players using them at random away from repairers trained to do this work . Comparing violin books sold ,with setters sold ,there must be many players who work blindly , hoping for the best . That leaves a market niche for the plastic adjustable posts that ,at least ,will not damage the inner surfaces . The carbon fibre models run at about $500 each . Pocket money for rich fiddle players .

[John Cadd]

Looking for different setter designs there is a very good newcomer . The Gemini soundpost setter has a metal plate rounded to fit the post shape. Look up the advert to avoid confusion . The shaft is narrow and smooth with a thicker handle to allow for some rotation to check the end fit. The post is held securely by a nylon cord pulled tight around the post . I think a few sharp notches (teeth) in the clamp would ensure the post rotation and also grain orientation . The Gemini setter will hold the post straight (up and down ) and it`s easy to check the verticality from outside from both end on and sideways on positions .
A wooden soundpost must on it`s own be classed as adjustable if the ends are to be adjusted to fit . So just over $70 for a Gemini seems to be a winner so far .
I made a tool to pick up soundposts that had fallen over . The main element was a length of springy curtain wire. The wire was originally fitted with threaded hooks at either end. Remove the hooks and cut a length about the size of a post adjuster. Fit some stiff wire through the springy part and shape the end into a hook big enough to fit the soundpost. The springy wire can be unwound and made to match the hook part to enclose the post. The outer end of the stiff wire can be made into a loop to fit the thumb. Shape the overall length into a curve and use the thumb loop as if it was a syringe. All very thin and light . Make a plastic cover for the spring if the original covering is missing. Heat shrink some plastic tube on. Electronics firms sell that .

[Mat Roop]

"tipped" would mean non perpendicular to the plane across the tops of the ribs.... IMO... Cheers, Mat

[Mat Roop]

John...you are aware of this?
https://www.violins.ca/tools/images/80-444.jpg
... Mat