Violin Forum/Message Board Forum Index Violin Forum/Message Board
Provided by Violin Vision
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Interesting modern look at violins
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Violin Forum/Message Board Forum Index -> Violin Making and Restoration Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
ctviolin
Super Member


Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 961
Location: Roswell

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:47 am    Post subject: Interesting modern look at violins Reply with quote

Hmmm,

In my opinion, some violins that come along in life, simply come across as special.

It is something intrinsic to a particular violin, and the execution of its details - the choice and use of woods & purfling, the varnish, and etc., that is usually identifiable right away, that distinguishes it as a particular individuals work (of artwork that is) and it is usually something that shows individual characteristics that scream "non-production line".

But what is of interest to me, usually, is that individual works of art have a certain something or quality that you can immediately identify as "superior" in workmanship.

In my case, such a thing hits me right off, even if I don't immediately identify all of the particulars or who the maker is... (Usually, sick individual as I am) I'm not as interested in who the maker is, other than a curiosity that needs to be satisfied or a question of value or collectibility that has to be answered for me or the customer or owner.

Another point of interest I have found, with violins such as this, is that they often DO NOT have that much in the way of superior tone. And please notice that I only said ''often".

It seems to me that the tone of most very well made modern (just like the much older "fameous" or "collectable" violins) are not REALLY "superior" instruments at all, tone wise, but they are (Old, Fameous named, or Modern) attractive aesthetically, having a certain mastery in the construction that is evident. (as well as at least an *adequate* tone.

Which, of course, is an acceptible reason for some violins (or any item for that matter) to be held in great or high or even extream value...

That's not to say that some violins don't behave better, tone wise, either - I sat in a room once, a situation where the violin was an entity that transcended a mere instrument, and had entered another realm entirely. It became absoutely hypnotic. of course that was in a small room where Yehudi Menuhin was playing the violin, along side his sister Hepzibah on the piano.

My question to Yehudi today would have been "Is that your Strad, or one of your modern violins" ?

I believe that operator influence can be the most important influence, and that exactly what violin is being used, may well be secondary to artistic mastery by the player, or musician.
_________________
Look,
Listen,
Learn.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
johngia
Member


Joined: 10 Nov 2009
Posts: 84

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I believe that operator influence can be the most important influence, and that exactly what violin is being used, may well be secondary to artistic mastery by the player, or musician.

In my inexperience and ignorance of what a "good" violin is "supposed" to sound like, I believe that any instrument in the hands of an artist/musician can make emotionally communicative passionate music that can stir the soul.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ctviolin
Super Member


Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 961
Location: Roswell

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johngia wrote:
Quote:
I believe that operator influence can be the most important influence, and that exactly what violin is being used, may well be secondary to artistic mastery by the player, or musician.

In my inexperience and ignorance of what a "good" violin is "supposed" to sound like, I believe that any instrument in the hands of an artist/musician can make emotionally communicative passionate music that can stir the soul.


"g,zactly.

Amen.
_________________
Look,
Listen,
Learn.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Michael Darnton
Moderator


Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 1281
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't you always want your gouges and knives to be as sharp as possible, even though you know you could make a violin with a dull spoon?
_________________
new blog at my site! http://darntonviolins.com/blog
my work sites: http://darntonviolins.com and http://darntonhersh.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Chet Bishop
Super Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 678
Location: Forest Grove, Oregon

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Darnton wrote:
Don't you always want your gouges and knives to be as sharp as possible, even though you know you could make a violin with a dull spoon?


Good analogy, Michael!

Now-- the problem continues to be that while I do know how to tell when my tools are sharp-- and when they are getting dull, I am still trying to learn what is a really good violin.

I sat in a violin judging (competition) room, and listened with absolute focus, taking careful notes as to what I thought was good or bad, and why...and listing them in order as best I could; trying to at least get the top ten right. The result? only one of my top ten even was in the top ten, and the ONLY violin I thought really sounded bad won first place.

Obviously I am either not hearing what the judges are hearing, or I have an uneducated, unrefined taste. That was kind of discouraging.
_________________
Chet Bishop
https://bluefiddles.com
https://fivestringfiddles.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
polkat
Member


Joined: 16 Aug 2012
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, but then again, any good race car driver can drive any car fast, but he'll drive a "race" car that much faster! And I seriously doubt that a known good player would prefer to play an instrument of inferior tone regardless of how "artistic" it is.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ctviolin
Super Member


Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 961
Location: Roswell

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

polkat wrote:
Yes, but then again, any good race car driver can drive any car fast, but he'll drive a "race" car that much faster! And I seriously doubt that a known good player would prefer to play an instrument of inferior tone regardless of how "artistic" it is.


I believe so too.
As far as I know, many top players today, play Strads, Rugeri's, Guadagnini's, Testori's, or whatever.

Many, though, also have a modern violin hanging around also, either made to look like their prize possession, to use when appropriate, or one with modern varnish, looking like what it is.

To me, the antique Italian NAME has become associated with ability. An upcomming star must have an antique Italian violin, above anything else, to be any good. Not exactly what reality is always based on. Modern Violins, unlike race cars, are not built significantly different from the best of the classical names...

But as you say, inferior tone on an highly artistic violin is something that doesn't always have a lot to do with the age or name of the particular violin in question.

I will suggest that people who produce very artistic violins. Modern violin, that is, seem, usually, to have an at least intermediate idea of what is necessary for a decent tone.

The more I am allowed to sample some great old Italian violins, the more I am surprised of their good but not great tone - just like many modern fiddles. Interesting.

Unfortunately, Ihave never played a Strad or Amati...

But I have played quite a few very expensive Old Italians. Very Often impressed, very often not.
_________________
Look,
Listen,
Learn.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
ctviolin
Super Member


Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 961
Location: Roswell

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess the fact is that I'm just really realizing the truth (for me) about what determins the "actual value" of violins, in a world that is steeped in both fiction and ''status''.

Anyone out there have a Strad they want to ship out to me so I can try it?

(Or two?)
_________________
Look,
Listen,
Learn.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
johngia
Member


Joined: 10 Nov 2009
Posts: 84

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael, polkat: I agree with what you are saying. "Sharp" and "race cars" are preferable. But --- in my opinion --- not the most important factor in producing "emotionally communicative passionate music". "Operator influence" is. It is all so subjective. A musical instrument is a vehicle for carrying the spirit of the operator and composer to the listener. And --- in my opinion --- the spirit of the music is more important than the sound of the music.

Chet, Craig: I heard an online demonstration of a 99 dollar violin. Again, in my admitted inexperience and ignorance of what a "good" violin "should" sound like, if someone would have told me that it was a million dollar Strad, I would have believed them.

John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Michael Darnton
Moderator


Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 1281
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You don't think that having a dull tool affects how you make the cuts?

I can't imagine any player who wouldn't want to put 100% into his music, not losing 30% of his attention to deal with a violin that doesn't behave the way he needs it to.
_________________
new blog at my site! http://darntonviolins.com/blog
my work sites: http://darntonviolins.com and http://darntonhersh.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
ctviolin
Super Member


Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 961
Location: Roswell

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chet Bishop wrote:
The result? only one of my top ten even was in the top ten, and the ONLY violin I thought really sounded bad won first place.

Obviously I am either not hearing what the judges are hearing, or I have an uneducated, unrefined taste. That was kind of discouraging.


Where was this? I mean what competition, where?

The interesting thing about most competitions like that, is that there are usually some tone judges (three or more, for example) sitting and listening and judging, and all of their answers are totaled anonymously.

So if you were a tone judge, your answers would simply be entered in anonymity, along with the rest.

Perhaps you would have effected the outcome in a more *correct* way? You can never say that everyones ear is *better* than yours.
It's sort of interesting that It's all a *taste* thing.

After listening to your posts for years, I'd naturally give your opinion on tonal quality, a very careful consideration. In fact, I doubt that we'd be really far apart. My opinions on tone are usually not all that popular either.
_________________
Look,
Listen,
Learn.


Last edited by ctviolin on Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
ctviolin
Super Member


Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 961
Location: Roswell

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Darnton wrote:
You don't think that having a dull tool affects how you make the cuts?

I can't imagine any player who wouldn't want to put 100% into his music, not losing 30% of his attention to deal with a violin that doesn't behave the way he needs it to.


The only REAL thing I've done since my little problem recently, Other than working my jaws, is put all of my eged tools on my desk and re sharpened them all (about sixty, believe it or not)... to a *working* edge.

It took about three afternoons.

Even including my 22" joining plane and 1/2" tiny violin edgework plane. I'll be building again one day soon, I hope!
Those tools are beckoning me and calling me a coward!
_________________
Look,
Listen,
Learn.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
ctviolin
Super Member


Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 961
Location: Roswell

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johngia wrote:
Chet, Craig: I heard an online demonstration of a 99 dollar violin. Again, in my admitted inexperience and ignorance of what a "good" violin "should" sound like, if someone would have told me that it was a million dollar Strad, I would have believed them.

John


I must agree with this observation.

(partly)

Still, if you ONLY are judging the player, and playing quality, and not taking a close impartial observation of what the instrument itself is doing tone wise, your opinion might be a tad one-sided. (from a makers POV, I mean...)

And I understand the excitement you are describing, for the ability of some performers to rise above and go beyond the immediate tonal qualities of the (of any) instrument at hand.

At the same time, there is another quality that can be judged, outside of judging the players skill, as independant from the playing quality of the musician at hand.

As a maker, I must strive to accomplish that ""other" judgement also...
_________________
Look,
Listen,
Learn.


Last edited by ctviolin on Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
actonern
Super Member


Joined: 15 Aug 2007
Posts: 444

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How musicians choose an instrument is always an interesting topic.

It's been said that many look for an instrument with a basic sonic signature the same as their existing instrument, only louder.

It's been said that musicians who actually choose an instrument only on the basis of sound are rare to non-existent. Most apply the same method we use to select a mate... we all want quality, but if the basic attraction test is not satisfied we'll never bother to get to know the inner beauty.

E
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Michael Darnton
Moderator


Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 1281
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think one can properly make a statement about how musicians choose an instrument, but if you want to divide all "musicians" into sub-populations, there are a lot of different generalizations that can be made about specific categories.
_________________
new blog at my site! http://darntonviolins.com/blog
my work sites: http://darntonviolins.com and http://darntonhersh.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Violin Forum/Message Board Forum Index -> Violin Making and Restoration Forum All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group