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Low Price Chinese Violins
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Jack Rushing
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Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 170

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 12:00 am    Post subject: Low Price Chinese Violins Reply with quote

i'm sure some of you have, or have worked on Chinese Student Violins.
I have found most of them to be high, squeeky, tin sounding instruments.
What did you do to get a better sound, and softer tone out of them?
I have tried all kinds of bridges, soundpost placements, different types of
strings, etc., without much improvement. I finally resorted to taking the
top off, and treating the insides to an asphalt mixture, with a couple more
ingredients thrown in with it. It improved the sound a whole lot, almost
equal to an old German trade fiddle.
Please share with us your experience, comments, and suggestions on this.
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jessupe goldastini
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Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 169
Location: sana' rafaela'

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

regarding my post abouut removing the top...that was in direct relation to this topic....

first about my music background...i have played and composed music on piano and guitar for 25 years or so....met a woman violinist...got inspired picked it up, took to it like a duck to water...so had to get violin....started with a china cheapo.....the dorelli experience.... a $140 violin outfit from musicians friend....

first the tone analisys...not tin'y...the opposite....very "round" bass'ish dead sound....often rope'y on the g string...very little internal reverb...changing from red lable to thinner thomstik helped but not much....

so the fixes....

first on the right face both on the lower bout and top bout there are symetrical grain checks...this cannot be a good thing nor can it be changed...wood choice is paramount...but hey what do you want for under 150?....i'd charge that much to drive to the store to pick up the wood...

so pulled off the top...easier than i thought...{building one first helps with pulling one apart}...once off there were sevral things that needed to be done,,,,

first where the lining meets the corner blocks , some where a wee short...not making contact{not done with the inset tech,just butted} so i dutched in a couple of small peices...

then the bass bar had a a small gap between it and the top plate...so... i took it off and reshaped it a bit to get it to sit flatter...as well as shaved it down a bit...

then after running the caliper on the plates....i found a rather large area on the back plate twords the top right bout that was very thick{ 6.5 mill} shaved it down to a even 3.6 within the tolarance zones...

then striped to raw wood, sun baked it for week and a half, put it back together, and finished it with my special spirt mix....in essence libirated it from the crappy shell they put on it...

i would say about a 50% improvment in sound qaulity......the bass bar and refinish were what did it in my opinion....
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MANFIO
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Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 458
Location: Sao Paulo

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They can sound better but that will represent many hours of work and, eventually, the sound will be not all that satisfatory.

To me, it would be like making raviole with bad flour, bad eggs, and bad filling...
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Jack Rushing
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Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 170

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are right Manfio. It's sort of like the old saying, " You cannot make
a silk purse out of a sow's ear." But, one has nothing to lose except a
little labor {which most of the time exceeds the value of the violin} to
experiment a little, and try to find ways to improve the sound of a cheap,
ill constructed violin, which may later be applied to one of considerable
value. So far, I have done three of them, and they all came out different,
but improved. I have not done any re-graduation yet, as Jessupe did, but
maybe the next one. I have just used slightly different concoctions to treat
the insides so far, but who knows what might be next.
Manfio, we are ready to see some pics, and listen to some clips of your
latest masterpiece Viola.!!!
Jack
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Jeffrey Holmes
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Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 90
Location: Ann Arbor

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JacK Rushing wrote:
You are right Manfio. It's sort of like the old saying, " You cannot make
a silk purse out of a sow's ear." But, one has nothing to lose except a
little labor {which most of the time exceeds the value of the violin} to
experiment a little, and try to find ways to improve the sound of a cheap,
ill constructed violin, which may later be applied to one of considerable
value. So far, I have done three of them, and they all came out different,
but improved. I have not done any re-graduation yet, as Jessupe did, but
maybe the next one. I have just used slightly different concoctions to treat the insides so far, but who knows what might be next.


Jack;

I think the problem with expecting to learn anything significant from this approach is that (I would hope) you wouldn't be tempted to apply "a concoction" to the insides an instrument of considerable value... or be inclined to regraduate it... not that less expensive instruments can't be improved... but what you can learn and apply to better ones would be more in the bassbar/setup/neck angle arena, no? ...and as Manfio mentioned... it still won't change the basic quality of the thing.
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MANFIO
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Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 458
Location: Sao Paulo

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that if you got the violin making virus the best thing to do is start making instruments from the scratch. It's the only way to control all the process. It's a long way, but it's the best way.
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Jack Rushing
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Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 170

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MANFIO wrote:
I think that if you got the violin making virus the best thing to do is start making instruments from the scratch. It's the only way to control all the process. It's a long way, but it's the best way.


So far, I have only contracted the Set-up and Repair Virus. I'm afraid the
Violin Making Virus would prove to be fatal, as I am in my 79th year.
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MANFIO
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Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 458
Location: Sao Paulo

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No problem Jack, the virus is good for your health.

Stradivari made instrument till 94.
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Jack Rushing
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Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 170

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MANFIO wrote:
No problem Jack, the virus is good for your health.

Stradivari made instrument till 94.


Sounds convincing. I have always loved the violin, everything about it.
And up until about two years ago, never had the time to spend on it. Since
then, I have been working on them, and enjoying every minute. I also
started taking violin lessons about the same time. My violin teacher says
that I am doing great, but maybe she is just being kind. Most of what I have
learned about repair, has been from books, and the wonderful instruction
that I have received from all of you on the Forums. I hope to start on my
first one from scratch soon. What model or pattern do you recommend for
a beginner?
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jessupe goldastini
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Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 169
Location: sana' rafaela'

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jack i think its great you take up a hobby, and what better one than making instruments....

i'm already on my second one...and find that after building high end custom homes that its much like a small construction project...which of course it is...

regarding the making of a violin....i suggest either the "wake" book and mold" or the "brown" book and mold....both are "italian style" interior molds and provide you with an adiqute "starter mold" to begin with...

the wake mold and book are good, mr. wake does go off on many un-nessacary tangents{imo} about "mcgyver" rigging you own "tool" for accomplishing certain tasks' such as a sound box...peg shaver....thickness planner...etc...the brown book is a little more straight forward....wake uses metric primarily...and brown standard mesure....i find working with mm much easyier than inches....its more straight forward....

so the most important part about this stuff is to understand a few very important things....

1. its very dangerous...for someone like myself with years of experience working with both hand and power tools, its perhaps easyier to adapt too...if you do not have lots of experience useing tools....i would highly sugest practiceing tool motions and technique on scrap wood prior to comencing on the real thing...this will familiarize yourself with the cutting abilitys of the different chisels and gouges ....NEVER cut twords yourself for any reason...ALWAYS adjust either your body or the work to achieve proper angle and purchase of the cutting tool....ALWAYS MAINTAIN SHARPE TOOLS dull one will slip, that can be very dangerous, even if in a safe position, a bad slip can move the tool to an unsafe one...ALWAYS WEAR EYE,EAR AND LUNG PROTECTION....

TIPS AND THINGS I'VE LEARNED....

the most important thing that will effect the sound of the "standard" violin will be wood choice and thgen plate graduation and tuning..."tap" tuning can be learned...or a soundbox can be constructed to achieve the same if not more accurate {for the amatuer} results....

again i have a advantage in that i have perfect pitch and have played , recorded, composed,music for over 25 years...with the aid of a piano tap tuning can be acheved fairly easy if you have a good ear....


i perfer to do all graduation, arching, scroll work, and tuning using my sences rather than gauges and and soundboxes...i'm sure this is considerd a sin...but frankly again i'm not trying to achieve "cremona violins"....i'm building stringing 4 string insturments tuned to g based on cremona instument principles and sound theorys....loosely....really i feel for me this is a very zen by eye kinda thing that does involve a lot of imagination....

glue prep is key to strong bonds...{read the article on glue prep}....

patience is key....having a problem with a cut?....walk away try latter....do something else

do not under estimate the level of difficulty finishing the violin...as an industry leader in my field, working with several macro chemist related to product developement and end user application in the feild floor finishes...and many years of experience with all the different based products out there...i can say that violin finishing is the hardest 2 sq. ft. i ever finished before....and i'm used to coating thousands....so basically be careful....you don't want to spend all that time building a great violin only to have to strip it down and waste a couple of weeks redoing the finish...

read as much as you can....

be patient bending wood....use a strap...if you can...

and if your really smart you won't listen to much of what i say....you'd be better off listening to andres.....
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jessupe goldastini
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Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 169
Location: sana' rafaela'

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh also, regarding china violins.....i would hope that one wouyld not expect to turn one into a strad....however i suppose that it may be possible...probly not, but anyway....the real purpose for me and i would think anyone is to be able to [at a safe affordable price}practice violin repair, graduation, removal/ replacement of parts, the shaving of necks/fingerboards, top removal, refinishing, crack repair...etc....there is no better education than just doing it.....
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MANFIO
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Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 458
Location: Sao Paulo

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi! If you happen to find a violin signed

LU MAN FIU

please don't regraduate it, it's a fake Chinese made by me!
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jessupe goldastini
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Joined: 25 Apr 2007
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Location: sana' rafaela'

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

haha....ahso' master lu...to desamate such a fine instrument would be a sin....

however after #2 is done...my intention is to put a pick up on it.....play a loud violin heavy metal solo, perhaps playing along with some mercyful fate as my background band...then at the climax of the solo....i will promptly "do a pete townsend" on it and smash it into a million{ or several} peices.....to see if humpty dumpty can be put back together again....cause really i don't work in a shop....and its the only way i can figure how to learn to repair them....rock on lu man
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Jack Rushing
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Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 170

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jessupe, Thank you for the detailed information on starting the violin.
And, you are correct, my work on the Chinese Student Violins was mostly
for the experience, and curiosity. I still lack a few tools before getting
started, but it won't be long now.
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bulerias1981
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Joined: 16 Jun 2007
Posts: 41
Location: Beacon, NY

PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eastman Strings is probably the best Chinese made instrument I've seen. Joe Regh of NY deals all his rentals with Eastman exclusively. He hand picks them out himself to double ensure quality.

Try
http://www.eastmanstrings.com/

or

http://www.reghviolins.com/biography.aspx
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