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Benedict White
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 Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| The tune you are plying it in is a minor scale, A minor. (Which looks the same as C Major) |
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Ode to Tragedy
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| What you mean looks the same? |
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Lemuel
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Location: Mt. Elgin, Ontario
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Benedict White wrote: | | How would you play it in G Major? |
Here is the link to Danny Boy in G major. It is pretty well the well known Danny Boy melody. Just compare it with the minor and see the difference in the mood from the major to the minor.
http://www.violins.ca/audio/DannyBoyMajor.mp3
http://www.violins.ca/audio/DannyBoyMinor.mp3
| Benedict White wrote: | | ...In G harmonic minor I assume it starts on an F. |
The one I recorded actually starts on F#, the same note.
Ode, the "sad violin" youtube link you provided at the top of the "OP", do you hear the vibrations of the violin? The violin example there is as good of a vibrato you will hear. Please let me know if I misunderstood you.
Last edited by Lemuel on Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:28 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Ode to Tragedy
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| I was asking to hear a version WITHOUT vibrato. |
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Benedict White
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Have you got a link to the G Harmonic minor scale? (So I can see what notes are in it? |
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Lemuel
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:21 pm Post subject: Simple exercise to establish Violin Left Hand Position |
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| Ode to Tragedy wrote: | | Could you point me to a youtube video which shows proper hand position so then I could just emulate that and see if things improve?... |
Hello Ode,
Here are some photos to illustrate the violin left hand position. The first 6 photos show how most beginners begin and the unsuccessful attempts made to hold and play the violin with the left hand. Following this is a suggested exercise which I have used in my teaching, and has proven helpful in establishing the left hand position.
1. Typical beginner's hold of violin left hand position.
Notice the face of the palm of the left hand is facing towards you, and not the fingerboard. Notice also how far the pinky is from the fingerboard, compared to the index finger which is right next to it. The next photo shows just how far the pinky has to reach in order to reach the fingerboard.
2. Beginner's attempt #1 to correct violin left hand position.
Here you will see how the weakest finger is having the most difficult time. The ring and little finger are straight (the middle finger almost also). The flat fingerpads are covering more than one string. Many beginners mistakenly blame their "wide fingers" when they only want to play on one string.
3. Beginner's attempt #2 to correct violin left hand position.
When they realize that their fingers are touching more than one string, they try to round the fingers by bending their wrist and tucking it away under the fingerboard.
This works somewhat for playing the A and E strings. However, in order to play the D and G strings (especially the pinky on the G string), the fingers need to reach further causing the fingers to flatten out a little and touching more than one string (blaming the "wide finger" again) as shown in the photo below.
4. Beginner's final attempt #3 to correct violin left hand position.
Finally, in order to place the fingertips exclusively on the D or G strings, beginners bring the left elbow much more to the right in front of the body in order to give the left hand and fingers extra height over the fingerboard, allowing more of the fingertips instead of the fingerpads (especially the pinky on the G) to touch the strings. Anyone trying this will quickly find out how tiring this can be as shown in the photo below.
Here's an angle shot of the other side. Notice how the left hand is raised excessively higher over the fingerboard, how far the palm is from the neck and the back of the wrist slanted at an angle relative to the ground (see photo below for correct left hand position and notice in contrast how the back of the wrist is perpendicular to the ground).
Solution: A simple exercise to establish natural violin left hand position
There is undoubtedly much material out there on solving problems of the left hand position. The following simple exercise will at least establish the orientation of the left palm in relation to the violin neck. This will automatically allow the fingers to be rounded over the fingerboard allowing easier contact of the fingertip (versus fingerpad) on the strings.
First, hold the violin in place as if you are about to play. Begin by placing all the fingers over the fingerboard by holding the entire violin neck with your left hand as shown in the photo below. Notice how the left palm is in complete contact with the violin neck. The left palm is now facing the violin neck at this point.
Before proceeding to the next step, make sure your entire left wrist, arm and elbow are relaxed as possible. Notice even though you are still holding the entire violin neck as shown in the photo above, your left arm is suspended vertically to the ground.
When you are satisfied with this sense of relaxation, gradually relax and very slowly release the left hand fingers of your left hand. Notice how all your fingers are still rounded at this point and your left palm is still somewhat facing the violin neck as shown in the photo below.
This is the point of what I would call the natural violin left hand position. Try moving your fingers up and down on the strings while maintaining the left hand's orientation (left palm almost parallel or facing violin neck). If you find yourself losing this orientation, repeat the above procedure starting from the violin left hand neck grip.
Once you can move your fingers freely in this position, try playing with the first finger and ending on the fourth finger for each string, checking to see if the fingers are still rounded. So for example, on the G string, play first finger (A) , second (B), third finger (C), fourth finger (C#).
Do not worry about intonation at this point. Your second, third and fourth fingers should be close together for this exercise. The objective is to establish the physical (and perhaps mental) habit of maintaining the natural violin left hand position as shown in the last photo above (i.e. Rounded fingers with left palm almost parallel or facing the violin neck). If at any time you lose this orientation, repeat the above procedure starting with the neck grip.
Please let me know what you think about all this.
Last edited by Lemuel on Thu May 05, 2011 8:35 pm; edited 6 times in total |
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Lemuel
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Location: Mt. Elgin, Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| Benedict White wrote: | | Have you got a link to the G Harmonic minor scale? (So I can see what notes are in it?) |
The G Harmonic minor scale would have two flats (B flat and E flat) for the key signature. The notes for this scale would be:
G, A, B flat, C, D, E flat, F#, and G.
To simplify matters, you can make any major key into a minor one by lowering the third note of that major key by a semitone.
For example take the simple key of C major. The notes are:
C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C.
To turn it into C minor, lower the third note, E, by one semitone which would be E flat. There are two main types of minors - harmonic and melodic. To leave the E flat only would result in a C melodic minor scale. To make it a C harmonic minor, you need to also lower the sixth note by a semitone, making A flat as well. So to clarify:
C melodic minor : C, D, E flat, F, G, A, B and C
C harmonic minor : C, D, E flat, F, G, A flat, B and C
To complicate matters, the notes of the C melodic minor scale changes when descending as follows:
C melodic minor coming back down: C, B flat, A flat, G, F, E flat, D and C
The notes of the C harmonic minor on the other hand stays the same when descending.
The choice of which type of minor to use depends on the music. |
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Ode to Tragedy
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:45 am Post subject: |
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Thanks only just saw this post, it helps clear up the positioning. I'll keep it in mind while playing although I've found I've not really had trouble with it recently but the pics are good to keep in mind to know I'm on track.
For lines 6, 7, and 8 of the sheet music of this piece are the highest notes played in 'second' position because referring back to my scale in my beginner violin book it doesn't go any higher on position 4 of the E string. Hmm I just looked up fingering positions and it seems it is actually 3rd position.
Also why is it that notes have the same lettering when they are higher and lower- i.e why does it go to G then start again rather then go through to say Z? |
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Ode to Tragedy
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:44 am Post subject: |
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Lamuel, would you be able to record a playing of this tune for me sometime without vibrato?
I'm practicing it still but I can;t envision what it would sound like without vibrato and I have no intention of trying to learn that in the near future so would like a more accurate model to emulate while learning the piece |
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Lemuel
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Location: Mt. Elgin, Ontario
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Ode to Tragedy wrote: | Lamuel, would you be able to record a playing of this tune for me sometime without vibrato?
I'm practicing it still but I can;t envision what it would sound like without vibrato and I have no intention of trying to learn that in the near future so would like a more accurate model to emulate while learning the piece |
Hi Ode,
Here it is...sorry, I've been terribly busy. I wish you were nearby,...as I could help you even more. I'll try to get a better recording later.
http://www.violins.ca/audio/Thao-Nguyen-Xanh-Sad-Romance.mp3
Cheers,
Lemuel |
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Ode to Tragedy
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:48 am Post subject: |
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No probs.
Thanks alot  . This is instructive.
I'm glad you did this cos it sounds similar to how I was playing it...To me the piece sounds rather 'flat' without the vibrato effect, I thought it was just my poor playing but since you are playing it and it sounds the same I 'blame the piece'  . Actually listening back it might have something to do with the recording in this case too. I've been reading up on vibrato and the general consensus seems to be that you should be able to make a tune sound nice tone wise etc. without vibrato and vibrato is just the icing on the cake.
You know the latter part where the notes are repeated higher, what position are they in? I haven't done any other positions yet so I have stayed away form that part as I couldn't figure out which they were in. I have recently got to the end of my 1st ABC's book and ordered the intermediate one yesterday so I'm guessing the next fingerings will be in that one.
Could you recommend me similar tunes to this melancholy/romantic of the same sort of skill level? I have been looking around free sheet music but it is sort of a needle in a haystack effort for me since I don't know what a tune will sound like just by looking at the sheet music (yet). |
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Lemuel
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:38 am Post subject: |
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| Ode to Tragedy wrote: | No probs.
Thanks alot . This is instructive.
I'm glad you did this cos it sounds similar to how I was playing it...To me the piece sounds rather 'flat' without the vibrato effect, I thought it was just my poor playing but since you are playing it and it sounds the same I 'blame the piece' . Actually listening back it might have something to do with the recording in this case too. I've been reading up on vibrato and the general consensus seems to be that you should be able to make a tune sound nice tone wise etc. without vibrato and vibrato is just the icing on the cake.
You know the latter part where the notes are repeated higher, what position are they in? I haven't done any other positions yet so I have stayed away form that part as I couldn't figure out which they were in. I have recently got to the end of my 1st ABC's book and ordered the intermediate one yesterday so I'm guessing the next fingerings will be in that one.
Could you recommend me similar tunes to this melancholy/romantic of the same sort of skill level? I have been looking around free sheet music but it is sort of a needle in a haystack effort for me since I don't know what a tune will sound like just by looking at the sheet music (yet). |
Yes, indeed, it sounds flat. For your sake, I played everything in first position, using open strings. In more advanced playing it could be played in other positions, adding glissando, more dynamics and shading in the bow and of course vibrato.
In regards to the second part one octave higher, the position you play in is different for everyone. In your case, you could set yourself up by placing your first finger on the G (second position) of the E string instead of the second finger. This would allow your pinky or 4th finger to reach the C note on the E string easier.
Most of the tunes I know that has calm, sweet or romantic tunes are more advanced. However you could try some of these sweet tunes that are very beautiful in my opinion.
"Melody in F" by Anton Rubinstein
"Ave Maria"or "Meditation on Bach, Prelude in C" by Bach - Gounod
"Love's Old Sweet Song" by J.A. Molloy
"Le Cygne" (The Swan) by Camille Saint-Saens
I'll check with my mother (she is a piano teacher) to see if there are any romantic pieces that might be available in violin. |
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Ode to Tragedy
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:47 am Post subject: |
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Thanks again.
Just downloaded the 1st and it sounds good and looking at the sheet music looks doable, the 1st page at least. I predict I'll require some aid for the second, but one step at a time .
Can you tell me what it means when they write F major, C minor and all this?
How does it relate to fingerings?
Also you say that the same pieces cane be played in many different positions. What is the point of this? Is it just for convenience of the player? Since surely the notes will still sound the same right if they are the same note but in a diff position? |
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Lemuel
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Posts: 515
Location: Mt. Elgin, Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| Ode to Tragedy wrote: | Thanks again.
Just downloaded the 1st and it sounds good and looking at the sheet music looks doable, the 1st page at least. I predict I'll require some aid for the second, but one step at a time .
Can you tell me what it means when they write F major, C minor and all this?
How does it relate to fingerings?
Also you say that the same pieces cane be played in many different positions. What is the point of this? Is it just for convenience of the player? Since surely the notes will still sound the same right if they are the same note but in a diff position? |
It would be well for you to pick up at least one reference I mentioned in an earlier post for learning scales. We can go over it together if you like. I've re-quoted below for your convenience.
| Lemuel wrote: | The first is Mel Bay's Theory and Harmony for Everyone by L. Dean Bye which is easiest to read and covers the basics.
The second is called Keys to Music Rudiments (Boris Berlin, Molly Sclater, Kathryn Sinclair). You can also get student workbooks No. 1 to 6. It is recommended by the Royal Conservatory of Music. This is also easy to understand and is much more comprehensive. It is published by Gordon V. Thompson Music.
The third is called Elementary Rudiments of Music (Barbara Wharram), published by Frederick Harris Music Co. Limited. It's also recommended by Royal Conservatory of Music. |
In regards to fingering, you should fully get used to fingering in first position. That is the first finger would fall on the next note after the notes on each of the open strings. The photos I uploaded to establish "natural left hand position" is paramount to proper use of the 4th finger (as it is also the weakest). Get used to fingering in first position using all four fingers. All fingers including the 4th finger must be relaxed while playing.
(Note: For your information, I have read that great violinist have used their own preferred fingerings in playing difficult pieces.)
Besides suiting a player's comfort and executing vibrato, different positions give different shades in the sound, though they maybe the same note. Gliding to different positions also give glissando effect, just like the first few bars of Thao-Nguyen-Xanh-Sad-Romance, where you slide from E to the G note on the A string. |
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Lemuel
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Location: Mt. Elgin, Ontario
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Ode to Tragedy wrote: | | Could you point me to a youtube video which shows proper hand position so then I could just emulate that and see if things improve? |
Hello Ode,
I hope you are still around. I just finished a couple of webpages.
This webpage deals with the left hand position problems and attempts to solve them. There is a short video clip at the end.
http://www.violins.ca/info/violin_left_hand_position_problems.html
This webpage deals with the simple and effective exercise for establishing the correct left hand position, also with a short video clip at the end.
http://www.violins.ca/info/violin_left_hand_position.html |
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