Violin Forum/Message Board

[Stradsman]

The internet is full of ridiculously cheap (often $50 or less) violins. I'm wondering if these instruments are good for anything. What's their main disadvantage?

They come neatly packed in a case, with bow and rosin. A lot of them have a sign that says "hand manufactured". Don't know what to think of them. I'm starting to teach a few adult beginning-level violin and was wondering if I could have the students buy these instruments just to start.

Thanks for any ideas.
_________________
"No one should be allowed to play the violin until he has mastered it."
Jim Fiebig

[FiddleDoug]

Those cheap fiddles are a real crapshoot. Some are virtually unplayable, and might require $100-200 worth of work to get them to reasonable playing condition. They might have dyed hardwood fingerboards and pegs, poorly placed soundposts, poorly cut bridges, lousy strings, and perhaps a few other problems. Personally, I won't sell anything like that. Too many potential problems that the customer will come back to me to correct. The least expensive instrument that I will sell is more in the $225 range.
_________________
Doug Wall

www.wallindependent.com

[bata]

[Mat Roop]

those $50 fiddles are great practice fiddles... repair and rebuilding practice!
Cheers, Mat

[Stradsman]

Thanks for input guys!

I agree. These instruments are pretty bad.

It looks like this sort of violins weren't even available a decade or two ago. When I told one of my teachers about them (he's an older man and doesn't use a computer), he gave me a few hundred bucks and asked me to get as many a 8 of those for him online. Says he's going to give it to his students for free to get them to take more classes. )

It still cracks me up when I remember his reaction, as I showed him pictures of those good-looking $50 violins on my laptop. He looked like older Mr. Bean! I told him the quality could actually be the worst he's ever heard. That didn't seem to bother him for a second!
_________________
"No one should be allowed to play the violin until he has mastered it."
Jim Fiebig

[armans]

In many cases the violin cases are more expensive than the instrument itself. To be or not to be ...that is the case!

[mr_violin]

I get most of my student violins from China for $37.00 each.

When I get them the set up is very bad, but I work on them a little and there fine for most beginners.

The students that need a better violin... well I just pop the top off and regraduate them.

After that they are far better than most of the rental violins.

I have some very good teachers that tell there students to stop renting and buy from me.

I can keep the price low because I don`t have much money into them.

Is the wood the best ? No!
The fitting are good Ebony ,but the fingerboards are not Ebony .
I have not had a teacher yet to ask me to replace the fingerboard , but that would not be to much to do to improve them.

Am I nuts? maybe?? Oh well , I am making money and a lot of students are happy.

Having fun too! Larry Lewis

[FiddleDoug]

[Mat Roop]

[mr_violin]

Hi Doug and Mat,
No problem with the blunt comments. That is fine. I knew they were coming anyway.
You have your standerds and I have my standerds. I just don`t think everyone has to have the same that`s all.
I agree with most of what all the other posts on here have said about these cheap VSO.


What I am trying to say though, is that there are people that simply will not pay the money to buy the better quality violins.
You will never sell a violin of any kind to them if it costs over, say $125.00. (some less than that.)
Look at the original posters ( Stradsman) comments about the teacher. He said; "I told him the quality could actually be the worst he's ever heard. That didn't seem to bother him for a second!"

That teacher was fine with using "cheep VSO " as long as it got people started taking lessons. I think there are a lot of kids that would never even get an opportunity to start violin lessons because of the cost it there weren`t "cheap" ones.
I do this violin thing as a hobby. I don`t have to make a living at it.
I sit with my wife and we work together on violin and watch TV at the same time. I only add $25.00 to $50.00 to the cost of the violins I have regraduated . Most people that buy from me still go for the cheapest ones.
Oh, and I do have the violins with an ebony fingerboard. Costs me an extra $15.00 for them. ( not much ) Only most people would rather save the money . I tell them what they are getting, so they all know. I also let them trade it in for a better one at any time latter if they are needing an upgrade. I will even tell them how much it would cost them for me to replace the fingerboard with a better one latter.
It`s not like these violins are unplayable just because they don`t have an ebony fingerboard! or made with the best wood.
A 7 year old girl playing on one of my "cheap" 1/4 size but regraduated violins, won 1st place in the Violin Solo at Elementary level of the Illinois Music Association 51st annual Olympic Contest this spring.
Her parents told me they could not afford to pay over $100.00 for a violin. If there had not been "cheap" violins available, she may never have had the opportunity to learn to play.

My point is not to make money, but to help the people that don`t have a lot of money get a violin. ( I have to make some money or I can`t keep doing it.) Like I said in my first post on this thread; " I am making money, and a lot of students are happy." I think on that point there you may have had a misunderstanding of what I meant. If I`m happy and the customer is happy what is wrong with that?

Still having fun!
Larry Lewis

[FiddleDoug]

Larry,
I see your points about the price points and getting students into it for the least cost. I guess that a real key here is that you are doing a proper set-up on the instruments. I've had parents bring me instruments that they bought on Ebay, and they weren't too happy to spend more than the cost of the instrument to have the soundpost re-cut and reset, a new bridge cut, the nut trimmed, and the pegs tweaked. Personally, I draw the line at dyed fingerboards.

Have fun with your "hobby", and keep getting those students going!
_________________
Doug Wall

www.wallindependent.com

[Mat Roop]

Hi Larry... Like I said, there is a place for everyone in the marketplace. Keep up the good work... as the students with your violins progress, They'll be calling Doug or I
Maybe you will become the Walmart of violins!
BTW, I have never seen a violin in a Walmart... lots of guitars though... wonder why?
Cheers, Mat

[BK]

Hi Larry,

Just to throw in my two cents on the topic, for what it is worth.

I don't think anyone on this forum would discredit the pursuit of learning the violin, be it on a 50 dollar violin or a 1000 dollar violin. It is a noble pursuit for the mind and the soul. There is something to be gained by experimenting, no matter what instrument you are playing on.

But, I think we may be talking about two distinct topics here, which are learning to play violin and the craft/art of making the violin.

Concerning the latter topic, I would say that, given the nature of violin making, it is very difficult to describe to someone the reasoning for which a certain instrument is a higher value than another instrument, if that person has not spent some quality time trying to create one. For example, once someone spends an hour trying to steam their first set of C bout ribs and has broken a few in the process, then they start to get a bit of a handle on, and appreciation for, why a nice instrument made by a master luthier may be priced a little on the higher end. Also, it is deceptive to come to an instrument and evaluate it just on the quality of wood that it was made out of. It is important to get an understanding of all of the work and effort that went into making an instrument, to truly understand what you are purchasing. What I mean is, you can stroll up to an instrument in a store and read a label that says this violin is made out of an engelmann spruce top and a highly flamed 1-piece maple back, but it's important to understand that when you purchase this instrument, you're not really just buying two pieces of pretty spruce and maple tonewood. What your money is really purchasing is a culmination of one luthier's years of study and knowledge and skill. I think that is an important point to acknowledge when you are purchasing an instrument. That you are purchasing someone's skill, rather than just pretty wood, because skill is something that is very hard to see and not readily advertised.

I guess one reason you are paying less for a machine made violin is because you are not really purchasing someone's skill, or time, or knowledge. Skill and knowledge, again, are hard to put a price tag on. But time is not. If you estimate that it may take anywhere from 2 months to 6 months to create one instrument, and you think about how much you get paid for one week of work at your place of employment, then you can start to get a sense for why some of these instruments might be priced so high.

But, as a teacher, I think that it is very good and commendable of you to be interested in the art/craft of violin making. It's good for students to have at least a basic understanding of how a violin is constructed just for their general knowledge and appreciation of the instrument.

Cheers!
BK

[mr_violin]

Thanks for the Cheers! BK.
There are some things thought that need to be corrected.
First , I am not a teacher. I do think that the violin teachers should know more about violins and how they work though.

I think the point of this thread was, are the cheap violins worth anything. That was what I was commenting on anyway.

I think most of us came to some kind of an agreement about that.

I don`t see what made you think I don`t know how much work goes into the higher quality violins,( maybe that was not directed to me?) Anyway, I think I do! I do have a lot of respect and admiration for the people that are making high end violins. I just am not competing with those violin makers, that`s all.

But, BK, I do have a problem with you assuming that my Chinese violins are "Machine made" . How would you know how they were made when you don`t even know were I am getting them from? Most cheap Chinese Violins are ALL hand made!
Just so you know , The violins I get are very much hand made. The people in China should get more credit for there hard work! They have to make them fast in order to make any money on them, but they are all hand made. They use some power tools just like we do.
You talk about a good laugh, If I told these Chinese makers that it took 2 1/2 months for some Americans to make a violin. ( they would not believe me.)
I can ask for a violin made to my plans. they make the mold , and the violin in one week . That is in a small shop, with one person working on it. The quality is quite good too!

In the factories, I have seen were the garland is all made in under 2 minutes. The "F" holes cut out in less than 1 minute, One person can carve 8 to 10 scrolls in a day.
On most of the cheap violins the plates are not very carefully graduated, I give you that. But it is still done by hand. ( some times by a sanding disk on a stationary grinder.) The aching is all done by hand just the same as anyone here does it.

My wife and I have gone to many of the Chinese violin factories and I have not seen a factory that makes the violins by machines.( There may be some that do? )
I know of more people here in North America that use more machines to make there violins , than the Chinese people do!

Cheers back to you BK!

Larry Lewis

[BK]

Hi Larry,

Yes, thank you for correcting me on these two points. One, I do not mean to make the suggestion that I know about your knowledge in the area of violins. I think I was intending to make a general statement, but it may have not have been phrased in a way that made it come across as such. My apologies.

Two, I also confess that I am certainly not an expert on the Chinese process of violin making. I do not believe a made specific reference to the Chinese, as such. However, I do know that in order to make a high quality violin it takes a considerable amount of time and care. I suppose that you could have an assembly line system and pump out violins, like they do cars. I just don't know what the quality level would be. Could be high, could be low, could be somewhere in between. Not to make the presumption that all Chinese makers are equal. China is a large country.

Thanks Larry!
BK