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Good hide glue... where do you buy it?

 
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Mat Roop
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Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 886
Location: Wyoming Ontario

PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:01 pm    Post subject: Good hide glue... where do you buy it? Reply with quote

I am due to replenish my stock of hide glue... the last few times I have not been too excited with the quality... the glue is cloudy and just does not seem as good as the stuff that is clear that I have gotten a few times in the past...
Do you have a supplier that is consistent with their quality??
I know Michael had commented on this in the past, but I can't find the post... but that was a long time ago.
Thanks, Mat
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Michael Darnton
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was going to suggest a place that used to carry "Michael Darnton recommended glue" (I don't know if they still do), but it looks like the forum sponsor carries what I recommended, and more varieties, too: http://www.violins.ca/supplies/hide_glue.html
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Mat Roop
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Location: Wyoming Ontario

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Michael... I have purchased glue in the past from a major violin supplier (not even thinking about gram strength) and I checked with them to see what strength they supply and they said they did not have gram strength data on their granular hide glue! Surprised
Checking violins.ca, they carry various strengths... so my question is... do you actually use the different gram strengths for the various tasks on a violin, or do you use one strength (and if so what strength) and then modify your needs with dilution?
Hope I am not asking for any secrets! Smile
Thanks, Mat
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bata
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Joined: 12 Jan 2011
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Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mat,
Why not try the glues offered by our host Lemuel.
http://www.violins.ca/supplies/hide_glue.html
His page gives the glue strengths and lists the applications.
I have used the 195gm for securing tops and 315gm for main joints and been very pleased with the results.
Regards....Tony
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Mat Roop
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Location: Wyoming Ontario

PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know little about hide glue, so am now getting into it a bit. A question still on my mind is what is the relationship of a weaker strength of glue vs a strong glue that is diluted to suit the need?
I have in the past ordered a hide glue that was not rated, but sold for violin work, from a major reputable luthier supplier. I have for example, just diluted it more for tops and less for necks.... now I am not sure that has been appropriate, but I am not sure why, nor what the relationship is.... but then I have never had any problems come back to haunt me either.
Any advice or education would be appreciated.
Cheers, Mat
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bata
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mat,
I found these websites to be very informative re Hide Glue and its properties.
http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Data/Materials/hideglue.html
http://mfds.org/thetechnicalsideofanimalhideglue.aspx
Hope this helps.
Tony
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actonern
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Joined: 15 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael:

Is there any one gram strenght that is OK of all making? If so, what would you recommend?

Also, do the lower gram strengths actually end up being weaker joints or just need more time to set up?

Best regards,

E
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Mat Roop
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Location: Wyoming Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Tony... good info.... Looks like there is different info from different places.
I checked my Courtnall book and they don't talk gram strength at all, just to cover with water and heat (to max of 60deg C)and have it so that it runs off the brush without breaking into drops... add water if too thick.
I tested covering with water and find that the granular glue I have takes 11ml of water to cover 20ml of glue... that's a ratio of water to glue of close to 1:2 by volume or 1:1 by weight (20ml of glue weighs 11.8gr.)
I also have the Juliet Barker book and she talks about soaking the glue in twice the volume of water & heating the glue to a max of 60 deg F. That's a ratio of water to glue of 2:1 by volume or 1:2 by weight
In your links above it refers to a very specific 1.9:1 of water to glue... by weight using the Milligan & Higgins high clarity.... but never dilute the glue to lower the viscosity.
In the Technicalside link above they suggest a water to glue ratio of 5:4 by weight for the 192 (high Clarity)
All are quite different, and I still am not understanding the consequence of dilution of high gram strength vs weaker strength...maybe from a practical perspective it does not really matter? and the dilutions for violin purposes are not that critical? ... i dunno!
just to summarize the comparisons water to glue by weight...
Courtnall... 1:1
Barker ...... 0.5:1
Frets.com... 1.9:1
Technical side . 1.25:1
I think I'll call M&H tomorrow...and then maybe I screwed up my analysis!... I'll think more tomorrow.
Cheers, Mat
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Mat Roop
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Location: Wyoming Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found this site in my search for info on Hide glue..
http://www.bjorn.net/index.html

So I wrote and here is the reply.... Useful info!
From: thordahl <thordahl@bjorn.net>
To: Mat Roop <mat@rezx.biz>
Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 11:50:03 AM
Subject: Re: Hide glue for violin work


Mr. Roop,
I looked at your email communication and checked a couple of the web sites. Frank Ford's site has been around for sometime and covers the subject quite well.. We are pleased to supply many violin and guitar shops in USA as well as Canada. Have a few customers in Western Europe .
Nearly all of them use 192 or 315 high clarity. The ratio is about 2 to 1 192 vs 315. Nearly all use only one grade. Of course that does not make them right or wrong , just satisfied !
As to your specific questions,
1- we encourage the use of a pinch of salt or urea to extend opentime rather than water dilution. As you know, water dilution deposits less glue solids and if dilution is carried too far very poor bonds could develop
2- higher gram strength glues give greater shock resistance . Our customers that buy both grades generally suggest they like 192 for tops etc and 315 for the neck etc.

3- I am not aware of any charts but can speak from general woodworking experience. Hide glue was THE GLUE until shortages developed during World War II. The white PVA glues were developed, users found them easy to use ( just pour ! ) and after the hide glue became plentiful again the glue industry added liquid hide glue to the market to regain lost business, no mixing, just pour.
Under controlled test conditions of mixing, temperature, amount of glue applied, temp and relative humidity the liquid hide glue provided a bond equal to the traditional dry hide glue/water product. Large quantities were used in the furniture industry in both USA and Canada. The LHG consisted of 20 % of urea, salt, , calcium chloride etc on the weight of dry glue, the balance was water to give the desired viscosity.
Now some ingredient detail -- dry, granular hide glue is 10 to 15 % moisture. Under conditions of very high humidity it can increase another 3 to 5 % but is still free flowing. In a glued bond this moisture change does not measurable impact the bond , proven by hundreds of years in the furniture. industry.
Now consider salt, leave it in a humid area and it will absorb considerable water, not free flowing and may even feel damp.. In a LHG bond the same thing happens. Salt will absorb water. Under prolonged conditions of high humidity, a little warmth or heat, some stress on the bond and you could experience joint creep or failure. That is the chemistry but in actual furniture use I am not aware of those conditions occurring. It has to be extreme.
LHG gives a 15 to 20 minute open time with 20 % salt etc. For your purposes you only want another minute or 2. I believe adding 1 to 3 % salt will not have a measureable impact on the bond.
Re glycerin, I would not recommend this practice. Glycerin holds moisture to give a flexible bond. It was a common additive to hide glue in the bookbinding business to give a flexible backbone (spine ) even as humidity drops in heated school and household environments.

Sorry for the long commentary, hope it is of interest. Let me know your thoughts

Eugene, Bjorn Industries
From: Mat Roop
To: info@bjorn.net
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 10:02 PM
Subject: Hide glue for violin work


Hello Mr. Thordahl... I was searching for specific hide glue information and found your website.
I am a luthier working primarily with violins... I am getting mixed messages as to which gram strength variety is correct for my application, and how to mix the hide glue properly. Here is the thread on a reputable violin makers forum that sets out how my query started and evolved:
http://www.violins.ca/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1441
Would you be able to respond with pertinent information or data direct on the forum, or to avoid the trouble & delay of registration, could you respond to me and I will post it. In my mind the question is:
1- If I buy a strong gram strength glue ( 192 high clarity seems to be one commonly used in our work) and need a weaker glue for more working time and a weaker joint, such as is required for gluing a top to a violin ... will a simple dilution do the trick? ... or
2- Do I need to buy different strengths of glues for the different jobs ... eg... A neck joint requires a much stronger joint than the top or the fingerboard.
3- Are there any charts that define the deterioration of strength vs lengthening of working time for the addition of urea, table salt or Glycerin?
Thankyou for your kind help.... Mat

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bata
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mat,
Thanks for posting the letter from Eugene of Bjorn Industries. It is very interesting and full of facts.
FWIW...For my 195gm mixture, that I use for my top plates, I use 1oz glue to 1 3/4oz of water. For my 315gm mixture, that I use for everything else, I use 1oz glue to 2 1/2 oz of water.
Once mixed and heated, I add about 1/2 - 1 teaspoon of water, as needed, to get it to the consistency that I want. This amount of dilution does not affect the strength of the joint. I like the glue to be the consistancy of thick maple syrup, so that it will just drip off of my glue brush.
I experimented to extend the tack time of various mixtures by adding urea. I found that I could increase the tack time from 1 minute to 6 minutes with no noticible decrease in joint strength.
If you want some urea to play with, I can get some to you. Normally it only comes in a 22kilogram bag. A bit too much for what we need.
Regards....Tony
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Mat Roop
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also had a discussion with Jay (forgot to get his last name ) who is the technical expert at Milligan and Higgins. He was very friendly and helpful and said if anyone has questions, feel free to call him for discussion... his number is 518-762-4638 and they are in Johnstown NY. Jay also travels, speaks and makes presentations to interested user groups... in case anyone is looking for conference speakers or topics.
Specifically, he did confirm these points:
1- it is best to use at least 2 grades of glue... the 192 High clarity and the 315 for high stress situations.
2-Always measure glue by weight because measuring by volume is very unpredicable due the great variance in particle size
3- Mixing glue at less than 30% glue to 70% water is asking for trouble
4-Adding Urea or salt is a good way to supress gelling, but do not add more than 2-10%
5- One of the previous websites previously listed suggested adding glycerin to extend the set time, but that is not recommended because glycerin softens the glue and the joint under stress can then creep.
6- Mixing glue and keeping it for more than a few days on your bench is not recommended because the glue continues to deteriorate and becomes a weaker strength dropping to the single digits if in the right conditions. Heat is the main culprit to the deterioration of hide glue, so keep your glue heated for the minimum of time.
He recommended mixing a batch of glue and dispensing into small paper cups and refrigerating or freezing, using only what you need when you need it.
7- If you have a batch of glue, and you need more, don't add more granules, start a fresh batch, because the old glue will have deteriorated and if you are in the habit of just adding more glue, you end up not knowing what strength you have.
8- the essential difference between the various strengths of glue is that the higher the strength the longer are the molecular protein chains. ... sort of like strength of a rope made with long fibers vs short fibers.
Most of you may know all of this, but for me this was new territiory... hope it will be helpful to someone.
Tony... thanks for your support and offer for urea... I already have some that I bought for thawing my eaves troughs in winter... never used it fo glue though... I guess I prefer to get everything nice and hot.
Cheers, Mat
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Mat Roop
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Location: Wyoming Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is another reply from Eugene Thordahl...
Mat,
Suggested starting points-
192 TG --- 2 parts water , 1 part glue

315 TG --- 2 1/2 parts water , 1 part glue

- Always weigh the glue, granulation causes big difference in volume

Always use cold water, it soaks quicker and more completely.

- using less water to start is OK as it is much, much easier to add more water than more glue
I do not make my own glue. Attached is our current list of grades and prices. If 5 lbs is too much please advise and we can offer some options.
Eugene
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