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Linings
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bulerias1981
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Joined: 16 Jun 2007
Posts: 41
Location: Beacon, NY

PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:04 pm    Post subject: Linings Reply with quote

Hi all. I have some questions about linings. I have a few books here, and I seem to get all diferent measurments, methods of installment and even types of woods used. Can you guys bring some clarity to this issue for me?

What type of wood is best?
What measurements? Length, width and thickness.
What is the best method for installment?
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Jack H.
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Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 346
Location: Israel

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some use spruce, some use willow I have even seen Birch used but I do not recommend it at all.
Willow is the best in my opinion as it has less weight. The lining is there for extra gluing surface for the top and bottom plates.
I would think that you can even use bass wood.
Sizes vary from maker to maker in regards to size and thickness.
from 5 mm to 10 mm tall. from 1 mm to 2 mm in thickness.
I see no reason why they should be thicker than the ribs or taller than 5-7 mm.
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M_A_T_T
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Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 43

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been using western red cedar 7mm tall x 2mm thick. It adds a nice contrast to the white-ish ribs.
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bulerias1981
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Joined: 16 Jun 2007
Posts: 41
Location: Beacon, NY

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes.. I've seen many different measurements. Also, in at least 2 or 3 texts, pine is suggested! Anyone use poplar?

Whats a good way to make mortises in the blocks to insert the linings?
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jessupe goldastini
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Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 169
Location: sana' rafaela'

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i like to make three ply strips for my liner,,, very thin strips of spruce poplar, spruce.....the thin strips make for very quick and easy bending, and knife cut,the lamination adds stregnth...about 7 and 3 for me....but hey what do i know
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jessupe goldastini
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Joined: 25 Apr 2007
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Location: sana' rafaela'

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

and not like i'm an expert or anything....but i don't like the mortise joint thing....it seems to me that in the event of a bad blow to the side that you may end up taking out a corner block as well as the rib and liner which may transfer to the plate{s}.....i would perfer my rib to crack in the middle or blow out of the side of the corner block on a miter....as something starts to break, that to which it is attached will come with it...the plate has good contact on the blocks....if an inset tears the block, it may take the plate too...mabye a case of overengenerring....in construction many often thought it was best to build super stiff well connected structures....it has been proven that some amount of flex and give be allowed in the event of an "event"....
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Jack H.
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Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 346
Location: Israel

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting thought, but i have never seen that kind of damage in inset linings.
I have seen more rib breaks right at the edge of the block where the lining buts up against it. These are a pain to fix and reinforce.
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Jeffrey Holmes
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Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 90
Location: Ann Arbor

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jack H. wrote:

I have seen more rib breaks right at the edge of the block where the lining buts up against it. These are a pain to fix and reinforce.


That has been my experience as well... in addition if (in the rare event) a lining pulls away, it often starts near the corner (when it hasn't been mortised).

...and while we're at it... I'm having trouble figuring out why insetting the linings to the corner blocks is over-engineering while three ply linings isn't?? Smile
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jessupe goldastini
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Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 169
Location: sana' rafaela'

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well its not so much over engineering as much as i suck and like to make things easy for myself.....i find that i have an easier time getting the liners in place without tweaking the shape of the rib structure....they are more plyable when "wet set" in the glue and can be adjusted to not mis-shape.....i'm sure when one is very good that the liners are bent perfectly to the proper curve as well as being "true" {not twisted} .....in essence they drop right in....i have not acheived that level of skill.....so this compensates for my lack of talent
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jessupe goldastini
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Joined: 25 Apr 2007
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Location: sana' rafaela'

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

and well while were on the subject.....as you know, i now will only be building chanot style bodys{ its just my way, forgive me}....and so i plan on making a mold that allows for no blocks at all, just one piece rib and liners all the way around....with slightly thicker ribs and slightly fatter liners i THINK it will be able to handle clamping....i'll let you know.....#3 "the anubis" is done today in white....an ahnk for the scroll....
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bulerias1981
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Joined: 16 Jun 2007
Posts: 41
Location: Beacon, NY

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can someone explain to me how to make the mortises for the linings in the block?
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jessupe goldastini
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Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 169
Location: sana' rafaela'

PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

foredom
dremel
roto zip
fein super cut
knife
chisel

yadayada

they may be chaneled out after the rib structure is complete prior to lining assembly....the traditional way i belive

however if you make your blocks....map out the inside edge{where the lining will meet....cutting into a long peice for saftey.....put a small approprite size notch with a miter saw,router jig,table saw etc... , then cut the block chunk....now when you go to put the ribs together the majoity of the liner notch will be removed prior to assembly....it may be sqaured or sized up easily with a knife at this point.....to ensusre the rib does not colapse,under clamping, where the notch is removed....you may shove a wax paper coverd shim as temp support in the block notch,....
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Jack H.
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Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 346
Location: Israel

PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jessupe goldastini wrote:
and well while were on the subject.....as you know, i now will only be building chanot style bodys{ its just my way, forgive me}....and so i plan on making a mold that allows for no blocks at all, just one piece rib and liners all the way around....with slightly thicker ribs and slightly fatter liners i THINK it will be able to handle clamping....i'll let you know.....#3 "the anubis" is done today in white....an ahnk for the scroll....


dude, with no blocks how are you going to set the neck?
How is the instrument going to stay together with all the tension???
You need blocks.
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jessupe goldastini
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Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 169
Location: sana' rafaela'

PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jack dude.....no you don't....

1.where the corner blocks normally would be the rib thickness taper's up to about 2.5 mil...

2. with the one peice rib structure the end block and neck block are part of the rib structure...

meaning where the the end is, an approprite sized "lump" is there and then at the top, for the neck block on each end are "lumps".....they are dry fit together and then joined at the top when the rib is bent around the blockless mold...the mold does have two cut outs for the end and neck lumps....what you would call blocks...but i define block as a separte peice of wood....when my rib is unbent laying flat it looks like this....

left to right

1/2 lump....1.2 mill taper to 2.5 ...lump....2.5 taper to 1.2....1/2 lump

i cut my own ribs out of chuncks of wood....except the first "regular" violin...the peices are about 2" wide to start with...i will use the scrap to make regular rib, for when i do the ocasional "regular violin"....

damm thougt cha had me did'nt cha'...dude.....or should we just call you lebowski...
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Cliff Green
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Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 111
Location: Amissville, Virginia

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why are you adding rib lumps (vestigial blocks) where the corners would have been. I can't see the improvement for a Chanot. Someone's gonna cry if you ever need a neck reset.

For Bulerias, you can use a fine saw to begin the rib mortice and chop/carve out the rest with a chisel the width of your lining material. First mark the bottom limit of your rib on the block and saw at 45 degrees or so.
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