Violin Forum/Message Board

[JWH]

I might direct this question more, but not exclusively, to Manfio since after looking at his work, I notice how clearly defined, by contrast, the figure is in his instruments.

Can you share some specifics, Manfio, on how you do this? I've noticed even in the scroll where things get washed out on many instruments, the definition of your figure is strong. Do you chemically treat the wood in some way and/or raise and lower the soft grain during treatment? I truly like the dark character of the hard rays.

Certainly, anyone else who has developed a good technique for this, I would like to hear from you as well.

I am destined to keep all my instruments in the white until I can find the ultimate solution.

[Jack H.]

With out giving away too many secrets.
First you must initially choose a nice piece of wood with deep, not shallow flame.
The depth of the curl in th emaple with determine the contrast of the flame.
also, when taking pictures of flamed wood the light should either be from the top or the bottom, not lit from both sides.
Chemical treatment burns the wood.
a nice ground treatment will also help to bring out the flame, but it needs to be there from the begining.

Jack H.

[MANFIO]

Yes, the wood must be figured, and the flames must be deep. But a good varnish with a good colour will look fantastic also over unflamed wood too, we see that in many many old Italian violins.

I start with a somewhat dark coloured wood, this way:

Sun tanning,

strong tea,

4% potassium nitrite in water followed by exposition to direct sun (6 hours), perhaps 2 times that (test in samples first, take care with the top, it can get blotched),

some of my oil varnish (the recipe in Biblioteca Marciana, Venezia, also on Baese's book: 2 parts oil, one part colophony, one part mastic) diluted in turpentine, 2 coats,

strong tea,

light glue sizing with a bit of alum,
stain (harmell)

more tea,

light fumigation with amonia.

If it gets too dark in the middle stop the process. It's a bit intuitive, like cooking (I love cooking...).

After all that the wood will have a strong cinamon colour and the wavings will be darker. This method would not be used by people with a faultless and very clean work, such as Darnton or Burgess, but it's good for a "Guarneriesque" work as mine.

Ground: my oil varnish (2 parts oil, one part colphony, one part mastic) can send you the recipe) in a paste with tripoli rubbed into the wood (don't leave it build up, don't leave it thick anyway). I take off the excess with a rag with kerosene, apply a bit more of my oil varnish and rub it over the wood to develop a very thin, but quite reflexive surface. This ground will penetrate a bit in the wood and that will make the contrast in the flames more visible, I think. The penetration in the wood will be stoped in different depths of the wood (this process had already started with the aplication of my thinned oil varnish) causing the holografic and tridimensional effect.

Varnish:

one coat of Padding's "Doratura Cremonese" thinned with Kerosene and heavily coloured with asphalt (roof tar) and Alizarin Crimson. The kerosene/pigments thinner will be very very concentrated, a residue will form in the bottom of the jar, so filter it;

two coats of Padding's "Doraratura Rossa" used the same way. Used 1500 Micro Mesh betwen the coats, as well as tripoli. Polished with tripoli and polish.

The varnish has lots of texture.

I've just finished the varnish on a new 17 inches viola and got exactly the same result of the photos you liked.
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[JWH]

"This method would not be used by people with a faultless and very clean work, such as Darnton or Burgess, but it's good for a "Guarneriesque" work as mine."

You are very modest, Manfio. If you deem others to be faultless and very clean, have no doubts, you should keep up the 'faulty' and 'dirty' work. It looks absolutely terrific. Hey, if it were all a game of being the most clean, we would all use shellac grounds.

I was wondering if you used potassium nitrite and fumed and I see you do. So, the initial tea application is for color added to suntanning, then the Baese varnish Tripoli paste is burnished in to seal the wood and add ground. So heavy on the tea in several applications starting pre-seal ground coat for color and twice layering above the ground to get adequate tannic acid reaction with the ammonia in the shortest time period???

Have you ever made your own madder lake or do you find that the alizarin crimson does what it's suppose to? I'll have to read again about the alizarins but I think Gamble paints rates alizarin crimson not as lightfast as some of the other alizarin dyes in their pigments (I obviously realize you are not using paint pigments but the dye itself). Have you had any color change over time?

About the varnish which you state is your own and without giving absolute details, is it some modification of the Baese 2-1-1 formula? And have you ever tried an all Baese 2-1-1 formula, and perhaps, only changing the drying oil lean to fat ratio on the same instrument?

[MANFIO]

Hi! Thank you for your kind words! You are a generous person indeed! But my work is far from being clean, but I'm happy with it anyway.

As a matter of fact I'm using sodium nitrite, it's much cheaper and easier to get, and give the same results, I think.

The diluted oil varnish coats will seal the wood a bit, the same with the acqua di colla (weak glue/alum size) and the pumice/varnish paste. When I apply the first coloured varnish there is no penetration of the varnish in the wood.

Yes the acid in the tea may have a function, it helps with the the rest of the materials, but I'm far from being a chemist, I can't talk about such things because I really don't know nothing about that. Just try it first in a sample of the same wood you used for the instrument.

Yes, I've already made madder lake, but it's time consuming... I'm using Kremer's "alizarin crimson in oil", it's quite concentrated (and much cheaper than alizarin) and is easily incorporated to Kerosene and varnish. I first dilute the betumen and then I add the alizarin to warm it. The glass jar will be sufficient for the rest of your life, I think. Michael Darnton gave me this tip (as well as many other precious tips...).

No, no change in the colour but even if that happens (and I think it will not) there will be sufficient colour there... and some fading (as seen in old instruments) lends lots of charm for the instrument anyway...

The varnish... I haven't modificated it, it's that: 2,1,1, and I've made just one batch till now. I made a little, I think 200 grams oil, 100 grams colophony, 100 grams mastic. Kremer sells a dark colophony that I've heard is fantastic for making this varnish. This varnish can be thinned with kerosene too.

Neil Ertz mentioned a modification in this formula in another forum, I'll quote him:

"My initial interpretation of the Baese recipe was to bring the resins to a high enough temperature to melt them and then bring the oil to a similar temperature before carefully pouring the hot oil into the melted resins to amalgamate them into a varnish.
To try and get a bit more colour in the varnish I decided to cook the resins for a bit before adding the oil, basically the longer you cook them the darker they get. Some resins seem to colour more then others with cooking and of course different resins take on different colours with cooking. Also the temperature you cook them seems to affect the eventual colour……so you have endless possibilities and quite a few opportunities to go wrong!
I’m using colophony and mastic in my varnish at the moment and I cook them separately prior to adding them to the oil.
I don’t like cooking the resins at too high a temperature, I’m not certain but I have a feeling I get warmer colours by cooking longer but at lower temperatures…..but I might be wrong.
I think as long as you are sensible and cook things outside on an electric hotplate away from small kids it should be reasonably safe.
I seem to remember the Fulton recipe involves cooking genuine turpentine which is an awful lot more dangerous then cooking most resins as I think the fumes are particularly flammable ……..I’m to much of a scardy-pants to try that.
neil."

Neil Ertz is a Roger Hargrave's pupil, he is quite clever and quite a good maker, he may know what he is talking about.

By the way, I would like to thank Michael Darnton, Neil Ertz and Melving Goldsmith for the precious varnish tips they gave me.

Feel free to ask more.
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[JWH]

Manfio, you spoke about the different rosin grades for the varnish and I see no reason why the ww grade need be used unless the idea is to always start with as clear a varnish as possible and modify its color content as you go, or use it as a clear coat. Wood Finishing Enterprises sells the darker ff grade as well.

It's interesting about Neil's theory on warmer colors and cooking the varnish. All I know is that cooking acts to break molecular bonds and once molecules are severed and depending on proportions, light is defracted differently through the medium. This doesn't speak to all the different compounds within different resins that show different color properties upon molecular destruction in combination with differences due to cooking temperatures. It's a great science that I certainly don't understand very well.

Thanks for all the help.

[MANFIO]

Hi!

The idea of using a dark colophony (as well as Neil's idea of cooking the resins) is getting colour that is already incorporated to the varnish, that belong's naturally to it. But that will just make a coat of it slightly darker (but it will make a difference, we work with details, detail is everything here), the main colour will come from the pigments.

The method above will work well. You can skip the Harmmel stain, if you want. If you don't want to make the oil varnish, you can use Magister's "Vernice Liquida" in the place of it, and it will work, I think, just thin it more with kerosene to make the varnish/tripoli paste, since I think it penetrates less in the wood than the Baese's recipe.

So you can use the above mentioned method with just these materials:

- Magister's "Vernice Liquida"
- Magister's "Doratura Rossa"
- Kremer's Alizarin Crimson in Oil
- Betumen (roof tar), quite cheap
- kerosene, quite cheap
- one micromesh sheet 1.500
- white tripoli power (or very fine pumice, I prefer tripoli).
- sodium nitrite.
- turpentine
- white polish
- and... some experience!!!

Many top professionals are using Magister's varnishes... they are not cheap, but in the above mentioned method I use just 15 grams of it to varnish an instrument... and making your own varnish is risky (burns) and can cost a lot, mainly because we will spoil lots of materials till getting the silver bullet (eventually many will never get it...). I had no master (although my father and grandfather were woodworkers) and no formal school, so I've spoiled lots of materials till getting good results, in a time we could not get information on the internet as today.

I've forgot to mention that I make the final polishing with soft cloth, with some fine tripoli and that commom white polish used for violins (but don't use it for violins you haven't made).
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[MANFIO]

And I dilute Magister's varnish to brushing consistency, but not too too thin. Five grams of varnish will be sufficient for coat in a violin, I think.
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[JWH]

Good tips, Manfio

Kerosene, I take it, allows better brushability but doesn't deter the drying time too much? I've heard Michael talk about using it and I guess many others use it as well. Apparently, there are vegetable oils that are not compatible with a pertroleum-based solvent, although linseed and walnut oil must pass the test when incorporated into varnish.

Speaking of bitumen, I have some chunks of roofing tar which came from large solid blocks. It feels like hard rubber at normal room temperature. Has this product been altered with a plasticizer and is there a more purified form of bitumen.................or does any of this matter anyway?

Last question, Manfio. I've never fumed with ammonia (only a few times over issues with my wife), but I assume that there is no lingering reaction once the instrument is returned to oxygen. In other words, do you find any further and minor darkening once the ammonia is removed? My guess is you don't. There are many apprehensive folks out there who won't use any reactive chemicals on wood because they fear there are residual reactions that continue out of their control and don't want to chance making changes to the fibers of the wood. I can see their point. It's a little like chemicals we ingest. We may know the LD-50, lethal dosage to kill 50% of rats or mice, but we don't know the long term effects on whether it causes cancer. I don't want to get too far flung here but I am in your camp on this one. Keep up the excellent work.

[MANFIO]

Yes, kerosene makes brushing easy, but it's ok to dry, better than turpentine and spike oil (and cheaper). It's recomended by Magister Products.

I've got my betumen in an artist's shop (in Florence) but Michael Darnton used the roof tar... I think it's the same thing... yes, it's rubbery, just take some of it and put it in kerosene or turpentine to dissolve. I keep mine diluted in turpentine in honey consistency.

Yes, there is some concerns about using amonia fumes, but my fuming is light. I put the instrument and the closed amonia flask inside a plastic bag and close it with ruber a ruber band. Then I open the amonia flask (inside the bag, it's ease and avoid you breathing that nasty stuff) and let it open for 6 or 8 hours, then I close the amonia flask and open the plastic bag (taking care not to breath it). Take care, amonia is quite a dangerous product, as you know. The darkening effect stops when the fumes go out. I haven't noticed no harm for the wood. It helps getting the marked flames you are looking for, but I haven't used it in my last viola and it looks ok too, I change things all the time, as many makers.
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[JWH]

Manfio:

You're right, the Magister products seem at first glance rather spendy but you said you thought 5 gms was sufficient for one violin. Using the following conversion:
1tbsp. = 5 ml. = 1/6 fl. oz. = 5 gm.
grams are basically equal to ml. (some fluid weight to ml. differences between water and oil-based mediums) which conversts potentially to 20 instruments when purschasing 100 ml. quantities. In which case, the products are not very expensive. Am I missing something here?

This means there is adequate product left over from doing one instrument at a time. What are the shelf life qualities of Magister varnishes?

[MANFIO]

they have a long shelf life because you add the drier just before using it.

5 grams for each coat, I've used 3 coats for my 2 last violas, so that 15 grams are suffient for one instrument (but I've used my varnish for a ground). Anyway, you will spend more making your own varnish, I think, and you will loose some years till getting the quality assured by Magister products.
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[jessupe goldastini]

hemp resin may be diluted in alchol for spirt varnish to provide a simmilar material to betumen in a differnt base....

[jessupe goldastini]

burnishing the material is the key to grain celabration....

caution should be used however...grain mottle can occour while trying to achieve burnish...

oil finishes will not adhere well to highly burnished material, spirt varnish ground coats will open the grain and provide for a mechanical bond, premature chipping, checking and "blow out peeling" can be avoided this way

i suspect that manfio's tea bath compensates for the pumice burnish....

crazy "joseppys" ingredient list

alcohol
wax free shellac
mastic
hemp resin
tea tree flowers
coffe
tea{black}
plum leaf
paprika
tumeric
sugar
blackberry
charcoal
ash
tabacco
wine
whiskey
wood dust
boiled iron rich earth{red dirt}
pumice
rotenstone
ants {roasted and powderized}
water
rose petal
lemon marigold
redwood mulch
redwood sap
maple syrup {pure}

[JWH]

Manfio:

Magister's Doratura primer sealer system looks inviting as well.
They speak to the qualities of darkening the medullary rays and an ossification process. It would be fun to get a comparison to the more involved process of nitrification and fuming but chancey when it comes to spending for what may turn out as a one time event

Interesting that ossification is noted. I've held to a personal belief that the reason modern makers can't graduate down to Strad levels with new wood is that treatment of the classical woods with some hardening agent was used. David Rubio with Potassium Silicate may be right or some variation thereof. I am beginning to slide off into Nagy land. I think I'll stop here.