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MANFIO
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never tried Magister's Imprimitura Dorata because I think I'm getting good results without it. And with my current ground I get almost (or a quite quite thin) no film over the wood, and I like this idea for tone reasons (and it's good to have the coloured varnish as near as possible to the wood, it will be more transparent this way).

My idea is getting a varnish film as thin as possible, and I'm afraid the whole Magister's process may lead to a relatevely thick coat (but I've never tried it as whole).

A friend maker in England, which I respect quite a lot, told me that the Imprimitura Dorata is not all that good for sound, but I have no personal experience with it.

I have no experience with Potassium Silicate too, but it seems to be quite alcaline and cause problems in the future. I like the "the less chemistry, the better" approach... we may use something that may look good now and seems not harmfull to the wood, but look bad and ruin the instrument in 10 years. Michael Darton allways talk about a maker whose instruments were ruined in some years due to chemistry, the wood became a kind of cardboard...
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JWH
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"hemp resin may be diluted in alchol for spirt varnish to provide a simmilar material to betumen in a differnt base...."

You're certainly on the right track, but you can get more color by scraping off the residues around the mouth of a bong, or for light users, swabbing off the stains with alcohol.

Have you made hemp resin varnish yet? It takes washing the resin several times thru a water pipe and inhaling in all the available THC during the moment you ignite the oil with the resin. I can't give you temperatures as with colophony or mastic, but the flash point coincides with a big beautiful white ball of fire.
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MANFIO
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And I think betumen is considered a pigment, not a colour.
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JWH
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As soon as I get materials together, Manfio, I'll let you know later this year how things are going. I hope Magister is fairly prompt on their deliveries.

Perhaps, not that important to change or comment on, but the bag technique on fuming seems a bit awkward. The instrument has to be suspended in the bag and inflated so no part of it is collapsed on it. I thought about using an aquarium for better visibility and hinging or just laying a weighted board with a rubber seal on the top. One more item taking up space though and maybe not that much more practical.
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MANFIO
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The bag method is simple, I leave the instrument on the floor, on it's side, outdoors, the bag can collapse (so that you can open the amonia flask when it's inside the closed plastic bag, with the violin inside it too), you don't need to inflate it (don't do that, the amonia fumes is quite harmfull, it starts fuming as soon as you open the flask).
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jessupe goldastini
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

regarding the hemp resin, it has amazing properties that rival or exceed conifer based resin dirivitives such as copal,mastic and sandarac....

aside from from adding a wonderful brown tone its resin when in proper proportion not only is compatible with shellac on,under or with it, but adds extreme flexibility and dramatically reduces checking or cracking issues with top coats...when mixed with sugar in proper proportion it will add "Sizzle" to the tone, a candy like base shell...

regarding fuming..... but a large air tight cooler, such as used for camping....big enough for all components and an amonia jar...simply balance the plates on blocks of wood inside, a stick pin hanger for the neck{end of neck block}....shut the lid and fume away....nice air tight container, much easyier to deal with than the bag thing in my opinion and experience...to open....place a fan blowing lightly on it, with ventalation, using a proper AO organic vapor mask, you may now safely open the lid to check the tan...
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jessupe goldastini
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh and how to get it...the resin....yes you get glass pipes and such that have been smoked through, no bongs or anything with water....the nastyier and muckyier the better.....simply toss the pipes into some alchol{bout a cup and half}....and swirll around and let soak.....the alchol will melt the resin....then after the alchol has turned virtually black....remove the pipes....strain the fluid and there ya go....an amazing shellac additive....try some straight on wood, see how nice the color?.....see how nice the film layer.....let some dry on your hands....see how easy it is to remove.....not...don't knock it until you try it.....ofcourse your sources for these instruments will be legal cause you live in a state where "it" has been decriminalized{as it should be] and are recieving the pipes from medical users only....because don't do drugs kids....drugs are bad...umkay...
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MANFIO
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was exchanging some e.mails with Melving Goldsmith sometime ago about darkened flames... they are present in some Cremonese instruments, but not in all... I just saw a quite fine Stradivari with a soloist in our orchestra today, the "Sasserno", dated 1717, and although it had beautiful flames they were not darkened.
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JWH
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"about darkened flames... they are present in some Cremonese instruments, but not in all"

I think the red varnishes go well with darkened rays. The Messiah to my eye is darkened and the darker shades of red go well with the near black tones of the rays. Browns and blacks generally don't go well together, so a brown violin with blackish rays to my way of thinking is less desireable. Everything is left to opinion.

I getting ready to order two of Magister's varnishes, Manfio, but I am wondering about the true differences between the Liquida Comune and Cremonese.

You said, "you can use Magister's "Vernice Liquida" in the place of it, and it will work, I think,"

Sounds like you are a bit uncertain. Should I pay the added cost of the Cremonese varnish? There is quite a price difference, but if there are some subtle differences say in the way the color is dispersed or refracts light thru the varnish, I would feel better about what you've tried vs. not. Do you have more opinions on this? Thanks
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MANFIO
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi!

In my above system, I use the oil varnish I make for the ground (Baese's recipe), diluted and in a paste with tripoli, and I said you can try using Magister's Vernice Liquida in its place, I've never tried that, but it may work applied thinnly and in a thin paste with tripoli.

I would get, so, the Vernice Liquida and the Doraturo Rosso (less expensive than the Cremonese). Some makers get only the Vernice Liquida and colour them by themselves, it works too.
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JWH
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Manfio.................You mentioned you make changes to your varnish system. Do you know what you may change the next time on another 17" viola or do you think about that when the time comes?
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MANFIO
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've just finished varnishing a viola with the same results of that you saw in the photos.

Yes, we may change things a bit every time... My Doratura Rosso varnish is almost finishing, so I think I'll use some Vernice Liquida heavily coloured with betumen and alizarin to substitute it. Perhaps I may try some antiquing in the next too.
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JWH
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello again, Manfio

I ordered up some Vernice Liquida Comune and Doratura Rosso today, will be shipped tomorrow.

I have to ask you about the alizarin crimson in oil. I missed seeing it on Kremer's website and so I e-mailed them about it.

They gave me a Kremer code number of K236107 for the synthetic-organic alizarine crimson dark. Does this match what you use?
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MANFIO
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi! Good! I've got the alizarine crimson with Kremer, the code of the product is

236107 Alizarine Crimson Dark in linseed oil 23.50

it seems it matches your code. It's quite concentrated. Make some tests in wood samples first.

You will need a scale to weight the varnish too, I've got an eletronic scale that is able to weight till 500 grs.

Keep us informed.
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jessupe goldastini
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jack is so right on tis one....while i belive manfio's method is fantastic....and does yeild outstanding results....wood coice, angle of medulary reyes grain growth has alot to do with it....for example, i consider my #3 a flop to some extent....as a floorman i train my eye o visualize the product installed, laying flat....certain boards will be more apt to catch the light just so in a way that really shows the flames....well with violins its the opposite....you want the grain to explode while the product is displayed in a vertical position....but true great wood will explode from almost any angle, much like a high qaulity diamond.....my violin looks great if you hold it upside down and flash the reyes while looking at the rib angle....but facing it head on....it looks flat and dead.....live n learn....
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