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A tiny trick for rehairers
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ctviolin
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Joined: 07 May 2009
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Location: Roswell

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:26 am    Post subject: A tiny trick for rehairers Reply with quote

A small trick I use when tieing off either end of the hair when doing a rehair is this;

I have discovered that most modern rehairers use modern glues to set the knots in place on the bundle of hair. Personally I have chosen superglue to glue the hair bundle together, in combination with the thread, at the knot.
I use Button Craft, Coats & Clark black Extra Strong thread. (it never breaks no matter how hard you pull it)
I also have been Looping it back around itself several times as I wind it around the hair, which helps the wrap remain strongly closed while I tie the knot off. (I use my teeth to hold one end of the thread as I tie it, but after twenty or so years of doing this, the right front tooth I (that still use) finally split and required a cap - so take care.

About ten years into it, I realized that if I wasn't extremely careful, occasionally the glue would seep through the knot into the hair ribbon, and cause the hair to be stiff for, oh, perhaps another 1/16 or even 1/8 of an inch beyond the knot making the rehair more difficult than it needs to be, because this area is best when the hairs can bend exactly right after the knot. making the wedge fit easily.

So, I found that if I put the superglue in a small (really, it needs to be tiny) puddle on the bench and then quickly dip the cut end of the bundle (right after the knot) INTO the glue, instead of putting the glue on the hair itself - it will seep up into the hair bundle and go no further up the hair than where the thread knot is - ever...

It will stop directly AT the knot.

I also have a habit of cutting the hair to size, so that a typical tiny amount is left there after the knot, which, once its glued, I take off the tiny bit of excess hair (thats now glued) with the grinder, flat, directly up to the knot - leaving no extruding hair length after the knot - making it even easier to fit into the mortice, and immediately bend up around the plug (at either the frog or the tip mortice.)

A small thing, but a great help in the job.

The glue - I dry with a hair drier, as I go along, and after the hairs are glued in place as a bunch, I have the habit of touching the outside of the wrap (the thread) with the tip of the tube of super glue. I do have a glass I can use when I doubt my eyes are working perfectly - but this step I have done for so long, I don't ever get any on the hairs anyway- just cover the thread loops. I find this step done easily.

For me, this really has a big effect on the final outcome of the rehairs. Which I am probably a bit over particular about.

Does this description make sense?
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ctviolin
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Photos would sure be nice...

One day soon.
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Ed Shillitoe
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very helpful Craig. I watched you doing the knots on your video a few years ago. But which kind of superglue do you use? I find the very thin stuff runs up right through the knot whatever you do - the intermediate viscosity doesn't. The gel is too thick and does not get inside the knot. Super glue is certainly easier that the way I was taught, using alcoholic solution of rosin and then flaming the end.
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ctviolin
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed Shillitoe wrote:
Very helpful Craig. I watched you doing the knots on your video a few years ago. But which kind of superglue do you use? I find the very thin stuff runs up right through the knot whatever you do - the intermediate viscosity doesn't. The gel is too thick and does not get inside the knot. Super glue is certainly easier that the way I was taught, using alcoholic solution of rosin and then flaming the end.


Right now I'm using "The original Super Glue" that comes in a yellow tube and is available off the shelf in most stores. A few tubes for one price.

I will say that the AMOUNT used, (in the puddle) is fairly critical. I've been doing it this way for so long, I probably didn't stress this point enough. There has to be a "tiny amount " of hide glue there in the spot you're going to dip the hair bundle into - as it will wick up into the hair right away - up to the knot and stop. (I do tie the knot very very tight)
then I hit it (the knot) with the hair drier - which heats up the whole deal - and causes it (the bundle) to become dry all the way through fast (like immediately).

Then, of course, the last step is to glue the knot and wrappings in a separate step. I just went and started another re-hair, just to go through the process steps again, and after i hit the wrapping I wick any wet glue very carefully (from the surface) with a paper towel - then it's over to the 1" sanding wheel, where I shave the extruding glued hairs back flat, down to right next to the glued knot.

Really, it's a TINY PART of re-hairing. But to me it's become a critical, habitual step, in getting the hair all to be correct at the completion of the job. Done this way, the plugs fit much easier because there is such a small knot (its as small and tight as it is possible to make it, I believe) to deal with.
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Last edited by ctviolin on Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ctviolin
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, and one more thing.

If you're doing the rehair in one spot on the bench (for example, where the vise is) remember; wipe the excess glue you're using, off the surface immediately on your bench - or you may find yourself forgetting and draging the hair in it as you finish the rehair.

I only know this from theory... (ha!)
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ctviolin
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, trying to post an image...

Ok, I did figure it out - it's simple. A bit different that the instruction page but very similar.

Im sorry that I posted a random photo but I am taking some rehair photos now that I know how it works.


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ctviolin
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason why I bring this up, is because it took a few years (even after lessons) for me to get all of the tiny details correct, in order for the rehairs to come out correctly every time.

Very often, in the beginning, the plugs and knots were a real be-othc to get to fit correctly every time.

Please someone, tell me if I am posting too many photos - or even too much of no general interest... thanks
Craig T
















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Lemuel
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig, you're doing a great job to share some of your true and tried methods for re-hairing bows. Don't worry about posting too much photos as long as they are relevant to your topic.

For the second to last photo, what (and in what way) are you "pressing" the knot into the tip?
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ctviolin
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lemuel wrote:
Craig, you're doing a great job to share some of your true and tried methods for re-hairing bows. Don't worry about posting too much photos as long as they are relevant to your topic.

For the second to last photo, what (and in what way) are you "pressing" the knot into the tip?


I never know how much to include in my descriptions, but, the knot on the hair - made properly (as in, tight knot & no glue in the, hair strands as they come out of the knot) - and the wedge, made properly, allow the knot to be inserted in a specific way - that is, shoved in all the way till the thread winding is touching the back of the mortice and the plug is formed to sit ON TOP of the knot. So then, the the hair is positioned so that it is sticking out the center of the mortice, when the plug is wedged in, it will automatically spread the hair bundle evenly from side to side, as it is coming out of the tips mortice hole... No strain, no stress.

So, now I'm tempted to show how to band the hair into the right position on the tip, so that during the further rehair, it is held in place on the tip, as if it is already rehaired... in other words the hair comming out is tied snugly to the tip as if it was already strung up... or it is tied to the tip with some small rubber bands held in the finished position, during when the frog wedge it delt with.

Then too, a great post for new rehairers would be showing how simple and geometric the plugs are shaped and made to fit and work easily.

I will admit that once I get to yacking, it is fairly difficult to get me up shut.
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Lemuel
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, thanks for clarifying. It just appeared that you were using some heavy duty rod in the photo.

Quote:
...So, now I'm tempted to show how to band the hair into the right position on the tip, so that during the further rehair, it is held in place on the tip, as if it is already rehaired... in other words the hair comming out is tied snugly to the tip as if it was already strung up... or it is tied to the tip with some small rubber bands held in the finished position, during when the frog wedge it delt with. ...


No consequences for yielding to temptation here...but more than likely gratefulness from readers.
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Mat Roop
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:37 pm    Post subject: Re: A tiny trick for rehairers Reply with quote

ctviolin wrote:
.....I do have a glass I can use when I doubt my eyes are working perfectly....

What do you keep in the glass CT? Do you find Jack Daniels helps? Very Happy

Thanks for your posts CT.... never enough sharing of info or pics!

Many moons ago when I started rehairing, I tried the traditional molten rosin as the sealer and needless to say was not impressed. I found that I could pull an individual hair out of the knot. Two reasons for this ... the sealant and tightness of the knot.
I tested as many different adhesives as I could find in hardware stores ( including hot hide glue) to see which ones stuck to hair the best. I tried a variety of knots and thread including different guages of brass wire. each combination was tested to see if I could pull a single hair out of the finished knot.

As a consequence there are two things that I do that are different than you .... Please note that I am not being critical at all... just sharing my findings and what works for me.
1- the sealant I use is "Sealall" http://www.biosafe-inc.com/sealall.htm
available in almost any hardware store. In my tests this sealant was the only one that consistently held every hair in place. pulling a single hair always broke outside the knot. After tying the knot and cutting the hair off at about 3/32" ahead of the knot I work the sealant into the hair ends with a small instrument screwdriver that has been sharpened to a knife edge so that it drives between the hairs. I run some of the sealant over the thread of the knot for extra security, but not really necessary. It does not wick past the knot. The only drawback is that it needs to dry overnight, although it can be accelerated with a hairdryer. Once dry, if the knot is too long it is easily shortened by holding it against a disc sander.... never had a knot let go... yet!
2-I tie with Coates heavy duty 100% nylon upholstery thread. I use a consistent unique color... that identifies my knot. I use 3 rounds of the Constrictor knot.
http://www.animatedknots.com/constrictorfold/index.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com
The nice thing about this knot is that it holds as tight as you pull it, lays flat... and won't let go. cut the ends of the threads 1/8", touch them with a bic and squeeze down while hot to seal the ends. It took me some time to figure the knot out but after a few dozen bows it goes quick.... makes a knot where the thread band is only 1/16 to 3/32 wide max. The 28 Ga. brass wire works OK and is quite serviceable... but I don't like the twisted ends that you end up with.

My 2 cents worth!... Cheers, Mat
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ctviolin
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:52 am    Post subject: Re: A tiny trick for rehairers Reply with quote

Mat Roop wrote:
ctviolin wrote:
.....I do have a glass I can use when I doubt my eyes are working perfectly....

What do you keep in the glass CT? Do you find Jack Daniels helps? Very Happy

Thanks for your posts CT.... never enough sharing of info or pics!

As a consequence there are two things that I do that are different than you .... Please note that I am not being critical at all... just sharing my findings and what works for me.


My 2 cents worth!... Cheers, Mat



Mat,

I wish! Twenty five years ago (before dialysis started) that WAS my drink... JD on the rocks please!

You're exactly right, there never enough sharing info or pics.

What I am looking for, and why I choose to post HERE now, is for anyone to post back SOMETHING that shows an understanding of the subject, that is equal to, or greater than, my own.

I enjoy being challenged or learning without the additional garbage.

So, can I have a friendly discussion, or, can I learn something here - is enough for me.

I even enjoy a post that shows interest in what it is that I do for a living...
Either by someone who does the same thing, or by someone who wants to do it, or even just someone who simply has an interest - I'm not particularly interested in WHY someone asks something. I'll go ahead and talk either way. Because I do have a big mouth that likes to go.

One way or the other, I don't really care. What I have come to care about most these days online is courtesy. (oh well!)

What I do care about, is having a discussion where I can engage someone in a friendly conversation about what I love doing for a living.

Without being asked to pay for that fact.

Make any sense, why I say this?

I WANT your 2 cents worth.
That's why I post.
That's why I post here now.
Your two cents has always been engaging, worthwhile and authoritative - as in, I know from listening to you that you're speaking from experience.

I'll argue anything you want to argue about, any-time. (OK, OK, discuss, I mean)

But, I'm more interested in what you have to say, in particular, since you say things that disagree with me. And you're always polite. And you're always direct and to the point.
You do understand that I'm looking for exactly that, right? I rarely get that. You're giving me stuff that I must consider, think about and perhaps apply. Sorry if I blab uselessly.

Thanks.
Please keep on.
(I am working on my 'after the stroke' personality still, so - bear with me)

ct
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Lemuel
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think you're different than the rest of us. All of us desire courtesy, to discuss our interests, to be challenged,
and to learn new things. Probably the only difference I see with you is that you took the initiative (and probably
some courage, since you mentioned risk in your other thread) to bluntly express it (I appreciate that).

There's nothing wrong with differences of opinion (at least in the luthier world). I don't even think there is anything
wrong in arguing (I like to call it debating) or criticism (I like to call it feedback from the polls).

It only becomes a problem when one or both parties start to personally attack each other, or one starts to feel
attacked, even though there was no attack at all. By attack, I mean putting another person down in value, or
personally feeling degraded in value comparing yourself to another.

I've come to the conclusion that the root of this problem (and the cause of many unnecessary conflicts in life) is
human pride, or unhealthy self-esteem (whether it be "better than thou" or feeling humiliated). If this problem is
solved, I don't see how anyone would attack another or feel attacked. Arguing would be seen as opportunities
to seek the truth, criticisms as opportunities to advance forward, not to be better or feel worse than anybody else.
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Lemuel
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way, in addition to the above, keep on blabbing.....if it is any comfort to you, your blabbing is causing us to blab more. Wink
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ctviolin
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lemuel wrote:

It only becomes a problem when one or both parties start to personally attack each other, or one starts to feel
attacked, even though there was no attack at all. By attack, I mean putting another person down in value, or
personally feeling degraded in value comparing yourself to another.


Absolutely.

I was concerned, a tiny bit, that Mr Roop may have felt some of that type of crap from me, and wanted to dispel the idea. All I have is some difficulty speaking as easily as I used to, but that's getting better all the time.

Thanks once again for simply being there and saying something positive.

ct
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