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Some varnish thoughts

 
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shershey
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Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 28
Location: Dillsburg, PA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:23 pm    Post subject: Some varnish thoughts Reply with quote

Jeez guys and girls,

I just found this web site and was pleased to see the vast interest in the violin making and varnishing topic. You are all very much into this craft. That's great! I do have a few thoughts I would like to share with you.

First, I have been making violins, violas and cellos for well over 25 years and have just finished number 120. Over the years, I have gained quite a bit of practical as well as educational knowledge about my craft. I too (in the beginning) was searching for the "Holy Grail" in violin varnish. making way too many experiments, spending way too much time and money majoring in minors. Some good stuff was learned but, I mostly wasted my time. Time, I should have spent carving fiddles. Yes, like you, I did the Fulton varnish method along with all the other ones you have been discussing in this form. But, what I eventually came back to was, the realization that less is really more. Yes, less mass more movement (at least for varnish). For the past 20 years, I have been making and using a "spirit type" varnish. This varnish has Venice turps in it, copal, shellacs, and yes, linseed oil, along with stock lack and mastic. And like Michael Darnton, I too use shellac as my base coat. Now, I'm not suggesting this is the "end all" of varnishes, it just works well for me and my method of making. Spirit varnish can be a real bear to apply and you really have to keep moving when brushing it on your instrument. This may be why many makers dislike using spirit. You can ruin an instrument real fast with this stuff. My varnish ends up being about 6 to 8 very thin coats when completed. I do not antique my work, they will look antiqued in 300 years (or way less) anyway. Takes about a week or two to dry before they can be rubbed out and the varnish will continue to be soft for well over a year but, very playable and very flexible.

I am a 10 to 12 instrument per year luthier and I don't change models very frequently. I made the decision early on, to pick a few models and perfect the sound of these models. This worked for me, other makers do things differently and that's ok too. Do what works best for you.

Here's what I believe. Our earlier masters were artists and craftsmen first. They handled their tools with the greatest of ease and accuracy, they had a good eye, they knew their mediums and raw materials. Early stone sculptures even hand-picked the marble they wanted from the mines. Furniture and instrument makers chose their woods, painters chose what canvas material would make the best surface for their painting.
But first, they were highly trained artisans, masters of their crafts. Then, upon completing their work, varnish, pigments, grounds, polishes were all used to protect and amplify their work. They used what was available to them in their day (not some mysterious concoction) to achieve the results they wanted. Then, time, wear and tear gave us what we see today. Who really knows how their work looked, sounded or played, when their masterpiece first left the makers shop?

Don't get too caught up in this search for the "Secrete Varnish" Concentrate on honing your native skills and master the art first. Then "seal" your work for the test of time. Enjoy the trip.

www.hersheyviolins.com
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mapleleaf_gal
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Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 73
Location: tucson, az

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

how thick is your varnish?

i use three coats of oil varnish.
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shershey
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Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 28
Location: Dillsburg, PA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I never measured it. When the color is right and I have enough build up for the rub out process, I stop. Spirit coats are more like water in thickness and cary very little solids. So, I don't know but, maybe one coat of oil equals 2 to 3 coats of spirit?? Just guessing. I have gone as high as 8 to 10 coats on some instruments too.

I know this doesn't help much but, since I don't do oil amymore and haven't for many years, I never compare the two.

Scott.
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Les the Luthier
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Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You mention that you have to move fast with the spirit varnish. Is there any way to recover from a splotchy spot that occurs when the brush hits a spot where the varnish has become tacky?

With the addition of linseed oil, is your varnish something of a hybrid between spirit and oil varnishes?
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shershey
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Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 28
Location: Dillsburg, PA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good questions Les and thanks,

First, you stop the brush you're dead. At least with my spirit mix. You really do need to keep the process moving along and this takes many, many violins to perfect. The best recovery is the most disappointing and you're not going to like what's coming next....Wipe it all off and start again! Of course, I would have to really see the nature of the spot you are referring to but, 9 tines out of 10, you need to start over. Stopping mid stream, is not an option.

1. I start with the ribs first. that tells me how the varnish is acting. Humidity, brush drag, etc. That includes the heel of the neck.

2. Next, I do the back.

3. Then the top. Be careful with the "ff" hole varnish run out. Varnish builds up in them then runs start to form. Tops are tricky.

4. Finally, do the scroll.

Each coat you apply should only take about 10 minutes to apply. Any more time and you're asking for trouble.

Hang the instrument a day or two to dry between coats. Sand between coats as well. Then, put on your best game face and go after it again. Each additional coat will get more difficult due to the layers of varnish build-up under each coat. I never said this was easy.

Note: If you do have some build up of varnish or a run you didn't catch, use a scrapper (not sandpaper) to level the surface before applying the next coat. Only do this after the varnish has dried a few days.

As for the linseed oil? It's just a small amount.

Happy varnishing, Scott.
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mapleleaf_gal
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Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 73
Location: tucson, az

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i totally agree about the spirit varnish and that you have to keep moving...fast. you cant go back over any spots that have not been touched in the last few seconds, the varnish starts to dry fast and it will be too sticky to run your brush over again. instead, you have to keep moving and just remember that you can touch up spots that you are not happy with later after the varnish has dried.

you can use lavendar spike oil in the same way as the linseed. i am assuming that the linseed is used to make the varnish more brushable. but you have to be VERY careful and not add too much of either or it will make your varnish soft and will take a long time for it to cure. i learned that lesson the hard way....adding too much spike oil to a cello i varnished. it never cured correctly (it smelled really good and relaxing, though!!) and kept picking up prints, even years later. it ended up being last summers project and had to strip and revarnish it. which is not fun on a cello.
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Mauricio Aguiar
Junior Member


Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 2
Location: Cincinnati OH

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scott, it's very nice to have you on this forum. Your work is impressive and your advice (and intention) to save us from so much frustration was very kind of you. Thanks for posting.

I was particularly struck by the last pictures on your site, the ones that show the instruments with only the ground on. It's beautifully done. Would you be willing to talk about how you managed to highlight the flames on the maple and at the same time avoid getting the spruce splotchy? Is it simply a matter of better sealing the spruce or do you only seal the spruce? And if you don't mind my asking, is the color in your ground mainly from the addition of stick-lac?

Thank you,
Mauricio
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shershey
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Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 28
Location: Dillsburg, PA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:20 pm    Post subject: Ground coat question Reply with quote

Mauricio

Are you referring to photo http://hersheyviolins.com/shopphotos/pages/IMG_5358.htm

If so, this is just my first coat of the shellac I use before the color coats begin.

I do not use any stick-lac in my ground coats.

Scott.
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