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I’m making a bow – would anyone like to watch?
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Chet Bishop
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm watching, too. I have begun one bow, of Ipé, but have not progressed beyond arching the stick...it is still way too thick. If I can learn the proper techniques, I will start experimenting with making some bows, between fiddle projects.
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Ed Shillitoe
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wm: I agree that you would expect vertical grain to be the best as it should resist having the head break off. However, bow makers seem to prefer the opposite if anything - that the grain runs horizontally across the face. Both Henderson and Bolander indicate this. One of the bows I am copying has horizontal grain and on the other the grain is at 45 degrees. If you do manage to get the Streichbogen catalog of the Sammeln Alter Musikinstrumente you will see that it gives the grain angle of every bow in the museum and they are all over the place - no consistency of any sort that I can see.

Ct: Yes, at this stage I have planed the top of the stick flat and the stick is square. The next stage is to narrow the stick but still keep it square and a bit oversize.

Incidentally - when I looked up the grain angles in the Bolander book I noticed on the next page that he used a full-length stick template. That must be where I got that from.
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whatwasithinking
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed,
That corresponds with what I've been told. I was also told that, especially with Ipe, I need to make sure that at the head, the grain should angle down toward the tip. Otherwise, the chance of a fracture increases--at least, that's what I was told. Looking at fine bows, I've noticed this in the grain at the heads of many of them. When I picked out my Ipe boards, I looked for this kind of grain.
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Ed Shillitoe
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having decided to go ahead with both sticks, I then planed them down to about the size at which they can be cambered reasonably easily. For this step I planed the bottom of the sticks a little bit, then the sides, then the bottom and then the sides again and so on. At each step the stick is likely to warp a little bit and the warp has to be planed out. All of this is done by eye – I don’t think you can mark a line and plane down to it. You can see in the picture that even though the top of this stick was quite flat previously , it developed a kind of curvy top after the sides and bottom had been reduced some. This is not unique to bows of course – all woodworkers know how wood ‘moves’ as you work it.




In the early stages I hold the stick in the vice with the swivel jaw – this is helpful when the stick gets to be tapered. At later stages I just put the stick on the bench with one end against the stop that is screwed into the surface. Having the stick on the bench helps to make the planed surface come out flat, while putting it in the vice bends it a little and makes it hard to get a flat surface. Having got the top flat again I found that the stick had now warped a little toward the left:




As I go keep putting the stick up against the template to find what the diameter should be at that point and keep going until I get down to about 3mm or 4mm over that. Of course if I get to where a stick is too thin and is still warped then I have to discard it and start again.

In the early stages I use the low-angle block plane, and mark on the stick with a white crayon to show the direction of planning that leaves the smoothest surface. When the plane gets hard to push I sharpen the blade again and put a dab of Vaseline on the sole to make it move easier. With soft woods it is not a good idea to put Vaseline on the plane as it gets into the wood and stops it from taking stain later. However for bow woods this is not a concern. In the later stages I use a small plane with the blade bevel down (a Sargent 2204), then the two scraper planes. To get in very close to the head I use a rasp. I try to keep the sticks as square as possible, but getting toward the head there is a gradual angling in of the sides, because the head has to stay at full thickness and so is not planed at all.





This last picture shows the squared up sticks, with the tools that were used. One stick is now 2mm over size which is a little thin, and the other is 3.5 mm oversize which is about right. The area behind the heads is a little more oversize.
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whatwasithinking
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed,

Can you describe the rasp(s) you use, especially around the head? I see that the one in the photo is flat. Do you also use smaller round ones? Is the flat one useful around the head? I've seen similar ones advertised for archery bow making, and wondered if they might also work for instrument bows.

Thanks,

Bob
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Ed Shillitoe
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bob:

The flat rasp that I use on the stick is really some sort of diamond-coated tool - coarse on one side and really coarse on the other. Hardware stores used to sell them - the closest I can find on the web is this sort of thing:

http://www.garrettwade.com/flat-diamond-file/p/19T06.01/

It works better for me on pernambuco or bloodwood than anything that is sold as being a wood working rasp. For shaping the head I have a coarse round file. After the rasp or round file I get rid of the deep tool marks with a number 3 file, then follow up with a scraper plane or hand scraper. For shaping the frog I have a couple of very small rasps - I'll get a picture of the rasps later. I suppose Ipe is very hard too - a regular rasp might just skate over the surface. I really don't know what archery bows are made of - probably something quite dense, in which case an archery bow rasp would work also. Let us know what you find out!
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ctviolin
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two pernambuco blanks - two rosewood (practice) blanks - and part of my "neck/violin project"...



Continue on whenever, Ed!
I'm ready to carve me up some blanks further (gulp!)...
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Ed Shillitoe
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now to make the sticks octagonal. This will only work if they are completely square and straight to begin with. After a week has passed since they were last planed they seem to have been quite stable.



So I planed off the corners using the block plane a little, but mostly the larger scraper plane. As before I marked the direction of planing with a white crayon and set the planes fairly fine to avoid any tear out. Most of this was done with the sticks flat on the bench and just looking down on the facets to make sure they were not getting bigger than the adjacent sides, and seemed to be at 45 degrees.

Although this was done largely by eye I also use a block of wood that has a 45 degree channel milled out of the bottom. I could also use a bow frog without an eyelet, but the larger block is easier. I hold the stick facing away from me with the head down, so that I see equal amounts of the head on each side. Then I put the block on the stick where the frog would go and move it left or right until I see equal amounts of the block on each side of the stick. This lines up the block with the head.



Then I turn the stick up toward me so I can see how the block fits. In the next picture you can see that the right facet needs to be planed on the left edge.




The block also helps to measure if any facets are too narrow. I put the block on the top facet and note how well it fits. Then I turn it 45 degrees onto the next facet – if it is too narrow it needs to be planed down some more. If it is too wide then I’ve gone too far – the top and side facets define the dimensions of the stick and they can not be planed at this point without getting into trouble!

Any planing of the sticks can lead to more twisting – but in this case both of the sticks remained quite straight. The octagons are not quite perfect, but the sticks are a still a little oversize so I’m not going to worry about that too much.



Here are both sticks together. One is on the small size, so I have to hope that that it does not bend or twist when it is cambered since there is not much room for error in finishing it.



Last edited by Ed Shillitoe on Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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ctviolin
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"carve up" this time meaning carve up - not "RUIN"

Or, should I say I don't care what results I get this time, I'm going to hair it and play it.
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Ed Shillitoe
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig - if you can make scrolls you can make bows! Keep going!
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ctviolin
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed Shillitoe wrote:
Craig - if you can make scrolls you can make bows! Keep going!




Will do Ed. This is a very longtime goal of mine - but one I've slept on a bit (some years - ahem!), to make a bow, that is.

As soon as I have the first stick octagonal, I'll post a picture.
Here's hoping for the best!

A scroll is simply a carving project that takes me a bit of work/time - I love carving such objects, although my work is very idiomatic and shows my personal hand. I still love such things, or such work.

My goal here now is to start making bows - even if I'm rather crude at it (in particular - to start with) - wow, what an accomplishment (in my own mind, at least) to play my own fiddle(s) with my own bow(s).
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whatwasithinking
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:21 am    Post subject: Octagonal or square when bending? Reply with quote

Ed,

I think I'm seeing that you're going for an octagonal stick before doing any bends, is that right? I've noticed that some like to start bending while the stick is still square, others go for a rough octagon first, and still others get a pretty refined octagon before doing any bends. Which do you prefer, and why? I've been aiming for a rough octagon on the two sticks I've been planing, but I was kind of thinking that next time I might try bending a square stick to see what happens. OTOH, I wonder if shaping a bent, square stick into an octagon might be more difficult.

Bob
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Ed Shillitoe
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob: Yes, I get the stick to a fairly good octagon before bending it - the thinner the stick the easier it is to get it cambered. I expect its just a matter of getting the heat to the inside faster. But I imagine that a violin stick could be curved while it is square - pernambuco bass bows are cambered quite well despite being thicker when finished than a violin bow would be when just made square. If I find that a stick is hard to bend then I plane it a bit thinner and try again.
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whatwasithinking
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Ed. Makes a lot of sense. I should have asked, I guess... what are the dimensions of a cello and violin blank as you cut them from a plank? I'm thinking I could have saved myself a lot of work by making somewhat skinnier blanks. This is an issue I've seen discussed very little in the available literature. Someone just mentioned to me that he knows a prominent maker who produces rather "skinny" blanks, so it must be a matter of preference, to some extent.
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Ed Shillitoe
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I put the template on the board and cut around with about 5 or 8 mm to spare. Obviously the closer you cut to the finished dimension the less planing you need. The most important issue is whether the stick will warp after it is cut out, because if you have to plane out a huge warp then the stick will be too thin too use. I suppose this is a matter of experience with the wood that you happen to be using. The other issue nowadays is cost - some people recently paid 150 dollars for a single stick of best quality pernambuco at auction! So it makes sense to cut as many sticks as you can from each board. Ipe and bloodwood are both very cheap so cost hardly enters into it with them.

I think the best thing is to cut a lot of sticks out with quite a wide margin - say 10 mm all around and then season them for a few years, then cut them down again before starting to plane them. I am not doing this currently because I have been making mostly bass bows which vary a lot in dimensions - I am just seasoning the boards then cutting out each stick individually when I know what I will be using.
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