Violin Forum/Message Board

[kubasa]

Ok, I have to say "uncle" on this one. This is driving me nuts. First off, this has nothing to do with any projects that I'm working on. This is one of those wondering thoughts that won't leave me.

Here's the deal. I thought I had read or someone told me that when using American red spruce for tops to make the upper f-holes eyes slightly closer together to allow the plate to flex more. Did I just dream this? When I make violins, I always follow the dimensions of the pattern I am working on so in reality I shouldn't care but this has been nagging me. Is there any truth to adjusting the upper f-hole eyes a couple millimeters either way to compensate for stiffness? Anyone ever heard of this? I did a search here and at other forums and didn't come up with much at all so hopefully someone here can elaborate or tell me to stop dreaming.

Thanks in advance.

James

[MANFIO]

I'll quote Samuel Zygmuntowicz excellent article called "Interpreting Guarneri" in the Dartington Conference.

These are his comments about the Del Gesú "Kreisler":

"In general, the main purpose of the f-holes is to cut the surface of the top to allow the top to flex and pump. What can one say' about the Kreisler structure? The moderate length, 75.6mm is unremarkable. The upper eyes, however, are rather wide-spaced, 42.7, leaving a broad bridge platform, 74.4 measured at the notches. But there is something else a little about this, the,wide wings, especially the lower wings, give the f-hole hole a lot of what I call "horizontal spread" (from the inside of the upper ff lobe, to the outer edge of the lower lobe, I measured perpendicular to the centre line), and the broad sweep of the lower curve cuts a lot of wood fibres. The horizontal spread on the left ff is 48mm. And the overall spread from extreme lower left circIe to extreme lower right circIe is 131.6.

I would expect this extra horizontal cutting to free up the side to side rocking and pumping of the top. In
this case the top might well need freeing up. The Kreisler's shallow minimal channel, full arch, heavy edge and healthy graduations would all tend to stiffen the top and add mass."

And here Zygmuntowicz's comments about the Kreiler sound?

"What is the Kreisler sound? I hear it as a rather incisive, clear, and articulate sound, with many overtones and a clear focused projection, not as dark as many later Guarneris.
This seems consistent with its relatively stiff arch, channel and edge. The moderate length of the ffs also fits in this picture."



And about Del Gesù "Pannete":

"Now lets look at the Panette from a structural view. The ffs are longer (78mm long), but closer set and with less spread, and with tighter end curves. While the ffs are set at more of an angle, which-would tend to increase the horizontal spread, the horizontal spread is still less than on the Kreisler (44.5mm).The upper holes are set narrower - (39,5mm), as well as the bridge platform (72.4mm), and the overall spread of the overall holes (127.3mm). The channel is deep with a wide scoop. Altogether, it presents a less massive and more flexible structure."

And his comments about the Pannete's sound:

"The Panette has a very dark, warm sound, quite rich if almost a bit hollow. Of course, there are many other factors, such as perhaps the slab-cut back (being softer) and thinner top, which all have effects on structure and sound.
I wish it had a little more edge. If you're not used to playing it, it's a little cushiony.
Describing sound is subjective, and linking sound to specific structural details is quite speculative. Still, attempting to understand these connections is vital."

And here a bit more:

"The 'hourglass' Guarneri shape seems less braced, more flexible and able to twist. Lengthening the f holes cuts more top surface, freeing the top verticalIy. Placing the upper lobes of the f-holes closer might also encourage the twisting and pumping of the top from side to side. Because of this flexibility, the graduation might be a bit thicker, especially in the bouts and on the edges and maybe on the centre of the back as well. "
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[MANFIO]

Frank Ravatin wrote an article for the "Journal of The Violin Society of America" called "Cello Making, Models and Measurements", one of those rare articles with fresh and usefull information for makers. He comments the pros and cons of his 3 cello models and how he has been working with them to get a better sound.

I've been playing with viola models in the past, so I found these parts quite interesting:

"Though I prefer the forma B, I still work on this model and try to improve things with a few stratagems, like fitting the bass bar more parallel to the grain of the spruce (I forget the subdvision by five to get the inclination), making the back arching 4 or 5 mm lower than the top and reducing the distance between the f-holes" ...

"The distance between the f-holes will change with the model. Using the forma B, it ranges from 92 to 96 mm, and up to 106 mm using larger models. Now I use the smaller width to give more focus to the sound".

Well, violas and celli will vary a lot in width and f hole distances... We can find a 40.2 viola made by Guadagnini with 55 mm distance (upper eyes) and a viola made 4 years later with the same size but an upper eyes distance of 51.5, quite a big difference.


I make my violas with a 50 mm f hole distance, regardless of its size, and I fit them with a 52 mm bridge, even the small 15.5 model.
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[kubasa]

Thank you Luis for sharing all of this good information! There's a lot here to digest. I will be re-reading this tonight much more slowly.

[DonLeister]

James you sound a lot like me when I have been reading forums too much, and I bet somebody did say something to the effect but...
Not many makers use red spruce that I know of and the ones that say they have, we'll I haven't played their instruments and I don't know what preferences their clientele may have, so...

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by stiffness or what anybody means by stiffness between the f's, seriously. How does that translate into what a violin is doing when played?

Personally, I would just do what I normally do and take notes and see what the differences might be when using red spruce.

I made a violin a few years ago with red spruce which has found a home with a professional violinist, it didn't stand out as that different to me as far as sound went with what I was doing at the time. One thing remember was that the wood worked differently , I could scrape it in any direction just about and it wouldn't tear out, maybe worked more like maple.

[kubasa]

Yes, I probably have been reading too much or it is my cold medicines getting the best of me.....I used red spruce on my last violin. I don't know that I would use it again. I noticed that the plate weighed about 12-15 grams more than I would have liked even though I used my normal pattern and thicknesses. I just seemed stiffer and heavier. The sound was okay but certainly didn't stand out.

[MANFIO]

I prefer light wood for the top and back. When I like a given piece of spruce I try to get many from my wood dealer so that I can profit from my experience with it.
I've getting my spruce from Simeon Chambers for years. Nice guy to deal with.
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[kubasa]

Luis - I might have to order from Simeon down the road. I've been ordering from the Wood Well in the state of Washington. Lately, I've been using Englemann. I know that some frown upon using Englemann or Sitka but I really do like using Englemann and the folks at Wood Well provided very generous cuts of wood.

[MANFIO]

I've been using Engleman too, low density, from
Simeon Chambers.
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[Michael Darnton]

I used red spruce only once. The sound was good, but I didn't like the particular reflective characteristics of the wood I had. In general, I find light wood makes for a less complex instrument--the heavier red spruce was great in that respect.

I wouldn't worry too much about f-hole spacing, especially as compensation for anything. There are lots of other things much more important.

Sam's comments about the Kreisler are curious. I can't see it has having particular thick grads through most of the top, compared both with Stradivari and later del Gesus, and the arch being relatively flat in the critical areas, it doesn't strike me as being a strong arch, either. ???? Actually, as I read those comments they make less and less sense to me.
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[kubasa]

Thanks Michael. I appreciate your remarks. The sad truth is that I'm one of those people who is still looking for a pocket knife that I lost 5 years ago....I have a hard time letting things go. I think the doctor has prescriptions for people like me!

By the way my red spruce came from Old Standard in Fulton, MO. Nice guys and the wood was nice too but was heavier than what I'm used to. It's interesting, Michael, that you say that lighter wood is less complex. I guess the biggest difference that I noticed is that my one and only red spruce top violin seems to be less affected (tonally) by humidity changes related to sound. I know this probably sounds crazy but some of my lighter Englemann tops seems to wash out when they get dry. I realize that there could be many factors related to this. This is just a general observation.

[MANFIO]

I don't know how many instruments you have made but, if you are a newcomer, perhaps it is better concentrating now in the model, archings, corners, scroll, set up etc., leaving wood and varnish subtleties to a second moment.
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[kubasa]

Long, long story - I ultimately found what I was looking for. It was the information in this video:

http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=96708334&m=96780342

I've got it bookmarked now for future reference!

James

[kjb]

thanks for the link, I had lost that also.

[kubasa]

It amazes me how much Sam bends and flexes the top plate in this video. I don't think I would dare move things as much as he does but then again, he's an expert - I'm not!

James