Violin Forum/Message Board Forum Index Violin Forum/Message Board
Provided by Lemuel Violins
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

bow rehair (misc)
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Violin Forum/Message Board Forum Index -> Bow Making Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
seammc
Member


Joined: 04 Feb 2014
Posts: 58
Location: peru,ma..usa

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:33 am    Post subject: bow rehair (misc) Reply with quote

I remember some advice from the 1940's.(talking to my Uncle) The old fiddler was talking about the right way to rehair a bow.

What he said was that the the hair has to be alternated one strand one way and the next the other in order to be right.

The only thing I have found lately is .. one of the rehair people said half of the hair should to be reversed to make a good ribbon due of the taper of the hair

Any one have any thoughts on this?

Jim
_________________
@ 75 years old ,time for something new
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
ctviolin
Super Member


Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 942
Location: Roswell

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:13 pm    Post subject: Re: bow rehair (misc) Reply with quote

seammc wrote:
I remember some advice from the 1940's.(talking to my Uncle) The old fiddler was talking about the right way to rehair a bow.

What he said was that the the hair has to be alternated one strand one way and the next the other in order to be right.

The only thing I have found lately is .. one of the rehair people said half of the hair should to be reversed to make a good ribbon due of the taper of the hair

Any one have any thoughts on this?

Jim


The idea that the hairs should be alternated, one strand one way - the next strand the opposite way, is patently absurd.

That the bundle may be made with half the hair reversed to equal out the ribbon is true. It can be done that way. But why?

It's not usually done that way, or even desired - because of specific reasons. The reasons being that the darker end (the thinner weaker end) of the hair, usually goes towards the tip because the tip has a thinner ribbon - the mortice and thinner width of the tip says so.
Also, different playing techniques ask for the stronger part of the ribbon to be near the frog.
Also, the spread at the frog end is wider.
So MOST often the traditional methodology is correct. The ribbon goes with the darker, thinner end, at the tip. The thicker whiter end of the ribbon at the frog.
Period.
_________________
Look,
Listen,
Learn.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
seammc
Member


Joined: 04 Feb 2014
Posts: 58
Location: peru,ma..usa

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:53 pm    Post subject: reversing the hair strands Reply with quote

I was 8 or 9 at the time and had no way to judge his thoughts .. But he 'was' a great fiddle player

I guess, from what you say, He was just another wind bag ... nice to know

Thx for the reply
Jim
_________________
@ 75 years old ,time for something new
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
ctviolin
Super Member


Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 942
Location: Roswell

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:25 pm    Post subject: Re: reversing the hair strands Reply with quote

seammc wrote:
I was 8 or 9 at the time and had no way to judge his thoughts .. But he 'was' a great fiddle player

I guess, from what you say, He was just another wind bag ... nice to know

Thx for the reply
Jim


Many fiddlers simply repeat what they've heard elsewhere. He could not know the facts, unless he had rehaired at least a few hundred bows somewhere along the line.
Windbag? Perhaps, but probably just a cool guy saying what he thought was the truth.

You're welcome . Any other questions regarding rehairing?

ct
_________________
Look,
Listen,
Learn.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
seammc
Member


Joined: 04 Feb 2014
Posts: 58
Location: peru,ma..usa

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:36 pm    Post subject: mortice and wedge? Reply with quote

actually I do have a question
the best mortise configuration looking down into the hole, is it straight sided or with a very slight taper
I know that it is a trapezoid at the surface. Will the plug be straight sided or slightly wedge like

some of my bows are made both ways and as I'm making a bow some advice would be greatly appreciated

The fiddler was a cranky curmudgeon. I think his horses tail took a hit every couple or years. (times were tough for him) If his boys didn't keep the barn clean and the animals became soiled he would go ballistic

Jim
_________________
@ 75 years old ,time for something new
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
ctviolin
Super Member


Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 942
Location: Roswell

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The mortices are usually slanted towards the center of the bow the deeper they go - both the tip and frog mortice. That way the plugs are pulled towards the wall that will pull the plug downward, further into the hole to help keep them (the plugs) from coming out when the bow is tightened.
Does this make sense?
That they do occasionally get pulled out, is incidental and occasional.

It is my preference that they (the holes or mortices) do not enlarge or diminish in size, but are straight sided though as I said - tilted towards the center...
If the hole or mortice gets smaller it is very easy to enlarge it slightly for a rehair, but if it is or gets larger - you just must deal with that.

The plugs themselves are usually made according to the individuals preference, as long as they keep the knot in, and do not pull out - are tight, and spread the hair correctly - they're fine.

My plugs are always wedge shaped.
they're made to fit in easily and get tight, just as they seat fully. I make them to fit the bows individually. You cannot use a plug directly from the supplier or dealer, without trimming it significantly. That's why I just cut new plugs from stock poplar pieces.

These things are much easier to show in person, with a bow in hand.
_________________
Look,
Listen,
Learn.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
seammc
Member


Joined: 04 Feb 2014
Posts: 58
Location: peru,ma..usa

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:32 pm    Post subject: Re;mortice and wedge? Reply with quote

Thank you
that is just what I was looking for
Jim
_________________
@ 75 years old ,time for something new
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
seammc
Member


Joined: 04 Feb 2014
Posts: 58
Location: peru,ma..usa

PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:27 am    Post subject: Hair alternation Reply with quote

This is just a speculation

J Scot skinner was known for his powerful up bow ..My guess is, 'that' is the way he got it done... For most, that up bow is a mystery and lost in the mists of time .. His little book on bowing technique is murky at best

His bowing technique never became part of the traditional approach, but his compositions did

One can only wonder .. If there is any thing to it, this would go a long way to explaining the difficulty of William Marshall's compositions also and affect 0.000~01 % of the fiddle players (not a fair and level field of play)

Jim
_________________
@ 75 years old ,time for something new
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
seammc
Member


Joined: 04 Feb 2014
Posts: 58
Location: peru,ma..usa

PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:38 pm    Post subject: I have just finished my bow replication Reply with quote

It came out a little on the wimpy side, due to my wood choice.(Massaranduba) I the used The numbers from the bow that I was replicating. It sounds good and is a very feminine bow (if there is such a thing) and very playable

Now for the experimental part ... I tried alternating the hair to see what that would do for the temporary hair. I can make burls at the tip now ... up bow is better However the strength at the frog is diminished (not good) the old fiddler was, I think, off base way back when. I can't see this even as a trick bow

ptviolin was on the money (I thought he was but I just wanted to see for myself)

Jim
_________________
@ 75 years old ,time for something new
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
ctviolin
Super Member


Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 942
Location: Roswell

PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:37 am    Post subject: Re: Hair alternation Reply with quote

seammc wrote:

J Scot skinner was known for his powerful up bow ..My guess is, 'that' is the way he got it done... For most, that up bow is a mystery and lost in the mists of time .. His little book on bowing technique is murky at best

His bowing technique never became part of the traditional approach, but his compositions did
Jim


Interestingly enough, most violinists, including fiddlers, will proclaim their strengths (like a strong up bow) as a construct of their unbelieveable self training, and misc. etc.'s
When, in fact, everyone who becomes proficient at the violin, will find themselves very strong at some things and very weak at other things - I would say that with regard to bowing, this is a particular and universal fact, due, in my opinion, to the inclination to put individual personality traits into the complex of "correct" bowing techniques.

So even if he was very strong in this area, he most likely could not say exactly why. He just did it. And fiddlers have a nasty (or great - depending on how you want to look at it!) habit of not using very much in the way of classical bow grip techniques...

Interesting points seammc. Interesting thread, thanks for bringing this up here.
A very feminine bow? Yes, I think that's a great way of describing a bows behavior... I believe that I know exactly what you're saying.
ct
_________________
Look,
Listen,
Learn.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
seammc
Member


Joined: 04 Feb 2014
Posts: 58
Location: peru,ma..usa

PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:57 pm    Post subject: Wondering Reply with quote

Quote:
When, in fact, everyone who becomes proficient at the violin, will find themselves very strong at some things and very weak at other things - I would say that with regard to bowing, this is a particular and universal fact, due, in my opinion, to the inclination to put individual personality traits into the complex of "correct" bowing techniques....(ctviolin)


Query:...:do you think that the unknowns(say ... Skinners bowing) can be arrived at through the various studies and etudes? ( hope I'm not cherry picking here)

Jim

_________________
@ 75 years old ,time for something new
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Ed Shillitoe
Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Syracuse NY

PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig - here's a question for you. This is a picture from an ad in Strings magazine of someone tying off a hank of bow hair at the head of a bow. The other end of the hair is evidently affixed to the frog and the other end of the thread is presumably in the workers teeth.



The way I would do this is to hold the hair behind where the knot would go. This leaves the free end of the hair in front which makes it easier to wrap the thread. I have the other end of the thread on a spool which is clamped to the side, to the bench. But I'm wondering if this leads to unevenness of the hair after it is tied. Maybe its better to tie the knot behind the hand and pull the thread up? But that sounds awkward. How do you do it?

Ed
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ctviolin
Super Member


Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 942
Location: Roswell

PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed,

Sorry it took me so long to answer.

I rehair the tip first.

Then, the frog gets a knot, which I do tie about a1/2 an inch before the frog mortice (towards the tip) on the hair ribbon - which does get pulled back to exactly where I want it, for that mortice... (it gets tied in the manner shown in the photo - but it gets tied and then pulled back on the ribbon...)

A turning stick? not usually, but occasionally I will use one. Usually it's not necessary.

I do have about 35 pages, and a dvd, outlining my rehair method, if you'd like a set please just let me know.

?

You also rehair, am I right about that?
_________________
Look,
Listen,
Learn.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
ctviolin
Super Member


Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 942
Location: Roswell

PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed Shillitoe wrote:
Craig - here's a question for you. This is a picture from an ad in Strings magazine of someone tying off a hank of bow hair at the head of a bow. The other end of the hair is evidently affixed to the frog and the other end of the thread is presumably in the workers teeth.


Ed


That does look like exactly what he's doing here.
_________________
Look,
Listen,
Learn.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Ed Shillitoe
Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Syracuse NY

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Craig. I do indeed have your notes and DVD but had not looked at them for a long time. I just ran the DVD again, and you are indeed holding the hair behind the knot, as I do. That picture looks like a very awkward way to do it.

Ed
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Violin Forum/Message Board Forum Index -> Bow Making Forum All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group