Violin Forum/Message Board

[Jim Williams]

Hi all, I picked up this old, supposedly English Violin recently with a view to restoring it. The printed label said "Triple Bars" on it and when I popped the top last night all was revealed. As you can see from the images there are 3 Bass bars fitted.

I've never heard of Violins being fitted with 3 Bass bars before and googleing for it hasn't come up with anything either. The practice obviously didn't catch on. Has anyone here come across this configuration of bass bars before?

I've just had a good look with a magnifying glass at that older label beneath the Monk's one and can't really make sense of the writing but there is a date of 1803 clearly legible. So it would seem that J.K, Monk fitted the 3 bars in 1898 but the instrument was made much earlier.

[MANFIO]

In general, when we find such "problems" inside a violin we remove them and install a good, orthodox bass bar, for better tone.
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www.manfio.com

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7875988@N02/with/464604020/

[Ed Shillitoe]

For more information on Monk you could look here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-English-Violin-by-J-K-Monk-Authentic_W0QQitemZ330156969205QQihZ014QQcategoryZ38108QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Ed

[bulerias1981]

I wonder how the violin sounds. If you know a bit of history of the classical guitar, youll learn about Torres and how he really revolutionized the guitar the way Stradivari did for the violin. One of the innovations was to use a series of bars strategically placed. Not only to stiffen the spruce top, but to help project a series of different tones. To this day, guitar luthiers are toying with different styles fan bracing (its the same concept as bass bar) in order to bring more volume and better tone idealy.

So is it proven that the violin's bass bar is the best overall design for the instrument? Sure the best instruments are standardized that way. But as far as the placement of the bass bar there is alot of argument where to the best location and size of the bass bar. So I hope luthier's will continue to experiment. But purists may differ in opinion.
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"I only write the notes as written, it is god that creates the music." J.S. Bach

[Jim Williams]

Since my initial post I've been able to decipher more of the old handwritten label and it looks like a standard 'tip of the hat' to an 'old masters' design. So was probably made by Monk after all.

Not yet sure what to do about the bass bars. On the one hand there's the issue of removing something the maker originally intended to be a part of of his instrument. On the other, thanks to the link Ed helpfully provided, it would appear even Monk himself gave up on the idea and fitted most of his instruments with a conventional bass bar.

I was rather hoping someone here may have come across one of these before and perhaps fitted a conventional bar and what effect it had on the sound.

[MANFIO]

Yes, but guitar making - and the guitar itself - is still developing, evoluting, there is lots of experimentation with guitars today.

But the last change in violins was when the neck was tilted back and lenghtened, and a stronger bar fitted, but that was about 1800. So we see the best violin makers looking back to what "liutai" were making in the old Cremona, Venice and Brescia.

Of course we makers change things from instrument to instrument, but in general these are minor changes. If it works we will repeat it on the next instrument.

Peter Zaret makes a different bar too, a highly controverial job too. And in Italy Lapo Casini make a bar in 3 pieces too.

For the untrained eye all violins may look quite similar, but for the expert there is quite a variety in style, finish, sound, etc. The scroll is a part of the instrument the maker has liberty to show his style. And there will be more liberty to personal expression in viola and cello making also.
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www.manfio.com

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7875988@N02/with/464604020/

[Andres Sender]

Jim, Manfio is right. The standard/'correct' procedure here is to put a conventional bar in. I'd bet there is not a serious professional shop in the world that would do otherwise with an instrument they owned. The only good reasons to leave it as-is would be either that it is owned by someone else who likes the way it sounds and plays now, or its design is otherwise so odd that the bars may be making up for other problems.

Bulerias--is it proven? You mean aside from the fact that the standard bar is the distilled result of 400+ years of collective experience? I have no problem with attempts to improve things, but in a case like the modern bassbar the lack of evidence that there is a problem in need of a solution makes the question seem detached from reality.

Luthiers are continuing to experiment, don't worry, there will continue to be a long string of experiments just like in the past. Perhaps some of the future experiments will even succeed in improving something.

[bulerias1981]

I proposed the question of "I wonder how it sounds" Being if the tone was nice, why change it? I agree if it causes unusual problems, I'd remove them as well. But if a player is been used to it and enjoys the tone, why change it?
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"I only write the notes as written, it is god that creates the music." J.S. Bach

[Jim Williams]

[spystyle]

1803?

A 205 year old violin with 3 bass bars? How cool is that?

What a cool piece of history!

And I thought I was so clever with my 115 year old violin

Did you restore it? I'd like to see a pic of it restored.

Cheers,
Craig