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Label in violin

 
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ollieken
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Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 256
Location: New Brunswick Canada

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:49 am    Post subject: Label in violin Reply with quote

I have been scratching my head about this for a while then I got a splinter in my finger so I thought I better ask here .
Is there a way tell if a Label is marked 1904 or 1894 that the violin was not made at later time than the label is dated just wondering. Ken
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Dave Chandler
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Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 669
Location: Mt Mitchell in North Carolina

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IF I think its a good, honest label, my (novice) approach would be to brush it clean with a soft dry brush, then photograph. Using a photo editing program, try adjusting the exposure, then contrast adjustments, maybe even some color adjustments and It might pop for you.
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L P Reedy
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Joined: 02 Apr 2009
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Location: Brevard, NC

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can't tell that by the label. If it says "Bubba Smith, Podunk, USA (or any other country not known for fiddle production)" and the workmanship is consistent with the label, it is probably correct. If it claims to be by a maker anyone has heard of and the workmanship is "factory grade," likely not. Probably doesn't really matter unless it is an exceptional instrument.
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ollieken
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Location: New Brunswick Canada

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:16 pm    Post subject: Label Reply with quote

I guess if it is in good shape & plays well, sounds good that`s all that matters I was looking at an old Catalogue
& nice old fiddles $15 $20 may had a strad label in some
Thank you for the reply not going to get anymore splinters over this
ken
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Michael Darnton
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Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 1108
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TMI, probably:
The first point of learning expertise is to guess a date. I was encouraged to look at violins in a certain order (try to know everything you can possibly know, possibly even the maker, from the back, then look at the front, and head, last--label, never) , and that was the first thing to try to learn to guess; age; continent; country; city; maker is the decision tree for expertise. Then if the label date doesn't fit that, there's a problem, right?

Another point is that often a previous label will leave a shadow on the wood; unless the violin was scraped out or cleaned thoroughly, or the new label fits or covers the old space, you'll usually see a trace of the shadow.

Another thing is that fake labels often just look fake: xerox, laser, or inkjet printing all have their own appearance and time period. Different schools of making printed labels differently--letterpress, engraving. Different periods have specific type styles identified with them that people making copy labels often don't respect.

Do you have photos of the violin in question that you can post?
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Mat Roop
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Joined: 24 Mar 2007
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Location: Wyoming Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ken, if you are really serious, you could order a dendrochronology test... that would likely tell the real story.... could be a hefty price, but then hefty for me could mean pocket change for you!
..Cheers, Mat
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Mat Roop
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Location: Wyoming Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Darnton wrote:

.....the first thing to try to learn to guess; age; continent; country; city; maker is the decision tree for expertise. ......

Michael... Has anyone written a book on this subject... ie what are the main characteristics to look for in each of the above categories? Not that I would want to specialize in violin provenance, but to know enough to recognize potential would be nice.
Thanks, Mat
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Mat Roop
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi folks... Ken had some difficulty posting pics of his violin and asked me to post them for him... here they are..






Nice looking fiddle... love the texture of the top.... Cheers, Mat
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ollieken
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Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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Location: New Brunswick Canada

PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:27 am    Post subject: Fiddle Reply with quote

Hello Michael Sorry for the late reply on pic Mat posted them for me
The label is Sebaftian Kloz In Mittenwald An 1901
there is a signature across the name looks like Sebaftian Kloz
& kind of a heart shape with B S & L in it
The date 19?1 when I looked with a led strip light .
I thought it was 1904 looks more like 1901

Thank you for any Info. on this fiddle Ken
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Michael Darnton
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Joined: 23 Mar 2007
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Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't really tell by looking at the photos, but the violin looks like it was made in 1901, but the model it's made on is a Klotz. Sebastian Klotz was working in the mid-1700s, so I'm going to guess that this is someone's copy of a Klotz, made in 1901.

That would be about the same as copies of Strads, except usually those don't have the real date they were made, and also your violin looks pretty nice, which most Strad copies aren't.

I might say something totally diffferent if I were holding the instrument.

At this point, I would assume that it's relatively nice, not junk, so don't let anyone who doesn't know what he's doing mess with it. At some point you might want to go to a real violin shop and get a real appraisal.
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ollieken
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Location: New Brunswick Canada

PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:04 am    Post subject: Michael Reply with quote

Michael Thank you for the reply on the Kloz fiddle
I got the fiddle around 1990 It has a fast response
very easy to note .also it has a very small neck
any how it is a keeper & I will look after it til the Grim reaper
gets me & hope some one else takes care of it for the next 100 years.

Thank you & Mat for the help Ken
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