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Technique to leave the rod with eight faces

 
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rteneos
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Joined: 21 Jun 2016
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:06 am    Post subject: Technique to leave the rod with eight faces Reply with quote

Hi Friends

Which technique you use to leave the rod with eight faces?

I usually make a perfect "square" and then I trim the edges.

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I've seen a person leave the rod with eight sides before it thins.
I prefer to tune the rod maintaining its square appearance and only after trimming the edges to leave it with eight faces.

What is the proper technique?
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Roberto O. Teneos Gutierrez
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whatwasithinking
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Joined: 26 Jan 2013
Posts: 227
Location: Washington State

PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roberto,

I don't know that I can describe the "proper way," because, as you observed, different makers follow different methods. It seems that nearly everyone, at the very least, knocks the corners off before bending the stick. So it might be mostly square at that stage, but with small 45-degree facets. Others prefer to plane the stick into a symmetrical octagon before bending. In either case, most makers would have tapered the stick, at least to some extent. I might be wrong, but it seems that the British method might generally bend the stick while it is still mostly square, while the French method might typically bend the stick after it is a more symmetrical octagon.

As far as finishing the stick as an octagon, it seems to take a lot of care, with frequent checking using a square and a 45-degree template. Finishing a stick as an octagon is more difficult than making it round--based on my limited experience.

You mention that you "prefer to tune the rod maintaining its square appearance..." I'm not clear on what you mean there, but I believe final tuning of any stick takes place after it's either round or an octagon, and just a little bit fatter than final dimensions--maybe starting at just a few tenths of a millimeter too thick. Some makers aim for different kinds of final geometry, such as a slightly triangular, or maybe oval, shape at the midpoint, even if the final shape is an octagon. There are so many different approaches and nuances...

I don't know whether that begins to answer your question, Roberto. There might be others around here who can offer much better insights. BTW, I like your name!

Robert
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rteneos
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Joined: 21 Jun 2016
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whatwasithinking wrote:
Roberto,

I don't know that I can describe the "proper way," because, as you observed, different makers follow different methods. It seems that nearly everyone, at the very least, knocks the corners off before bending the stick. So it might be mostly square at that stage, but with small 45-degree facets. Others prefer to plane the stick into a symmetrical octagon before bending. In either case, most makers would have tapered the stick, at least to some extent. I might be wrong, but it seems that the British method might generally bend the stick while it is still mostly square, while the French method might typically bend the stick after it is a more symmetrical octagon.

As far as finishing the stick as an octagon, it seems to take a lot of care, with frequent checking using a square and a 45-degree template. Finishing a stick as an octagon is more difficult than making it round--based on my limited experience.

You mention that you "prefer to tune the rod maintaining its square appearance..." I'm not clear on what you mean there, but I believe final tuning of any stick takes place after it's either round or an octagon, and just a little bit fatter than final dimensions--maybe starting at just a few tenths of a millimeter too thick. Some makers aim for different kinds of final geometry, such as a slightly triangular, or maybe oval, shape at the midpoint, even if the final shape is an octagon. There are so many different approaches and nuances...

I don't know whether that begins to answer your question, Roberto. There might be others around here who can offer much better insights. BTW, I like your name!

Robert


Thaks for your answer Robert
"You mention that you "prefer to tune the rod maintaining its square appearance..." I'm not clear on what you mean"

I appologise if I was not clear enaugh.
Please see the picture, where I left the bow "square" if you look at it from behind


[img]https://goo.gl/photos/orSK6p2kGcyWmgeT9[/img]

After some answers from nice people who try to help me, I would conclude that there is not an absolute true. Many archetiers has their own process to make a bow.

After flatten the stick to let it in a "square" format, I will make an octagonal format, drill the holes and only after this I will bend the stick.

The explanation for my process is that I dont have the optimum machines to make perfect holes and I need to do some manual work. And to make the holes with no resources, I will take advantage of the fact that the stick is still straight.

I still dont know where this road will lead me but Im not ready to give up. Im making my second bow and have wood to make at least 10.

Thanks Robert Smile

*Very nice name!!
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Roberto O. Teneos Gutierrez
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** Você é o único obstáculo entre o que é e o que deseja ser. **
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whatwasithinking
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Joined: 26 Jan 2013
Posts: 227
Location: Washington State

PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't be concerned about a lack of machines. Many, and perhaps most, makers still make fine bows without machines, unless you include the foret, or other manual drill. Even a simple "egg beater" drill can be used to drill straight holes. You just have to watch carefully to keep things straight.
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Nick Walker
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Posts: 48

PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My experience indicates that leaving the stick more square (only the corners knocked off) makes cambering and straightening go smoother. If the stick twists or warps you can deal with it and still have plenty of material to bring the aesthetics back. I've been making my bottom facets more complete than my top facets before cambering though.

I always leave more material than I think I'll need. You can always take more of if needed, but once it's gone you can't put it back.
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Nick Walker
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the machine issue. I've used a Milwaukee power drill, a big drill press and a foret to make my holes. They can all work, but it's always a bit nerve racking when you've put in so much work and one bad angle can ruin it.

A strategy that I use is to first cut my mortice, then drill in stepped sizes only into the mortice. After that I use the eyelet of the frog to guide a bit into the area beyond the mortice for the tip of the screw.

Bob, is that what you're doing?
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whatwasithinking
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Joined: 26 Jan 2013
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Location: Washington State

PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Nick,

First I used a foret and a hand-made bit, which takes some care, but worked out okay. This method requires holding the stick with one hand, and spinning the foret with the other. The basic old French method, I guess.

Then I "graduated" to using the attachment that came with the Gabosh foret. That's easier than the first method, but of course everything has to be aligned perfectly before you start, or you can speedily cut a perfect hole in the wrong spot. At least with the first method, I was fully engaged at every moment, and it was sloooow. But the Gabosh jig made it faster, and I could use a twist bit.

Finally, I bought the multi-function tool from Sai Gao. With this single tool, I can cut the screw hole, cut the mortise, and tension the bow for final adjustments.

I'm about ready to cut the screw hole on one stick. If I get there this week, I could post a photo. I think Sai has some good photos, and videos, on his Facebook page, though.

For the mortise, I started out by using only a chisel, going down to about 2/3 of the target depth, and a bit narrow. Then I made the depth and width match the eyelet, as I guess you're doing. I think a lot of folks use a milling machine for this operation, but you sure do have to be certain everything is set up correctly, or the stick can become scrap in seconds. Zzzip! and the bit can go right through the stick.

Now, with Sai's tool, you drill some small holes where the mortise is going to be. You just need to have a stop on your bit, so it can't go too deep. I believe that's about what the old French masters did--cutting several small holes, and then finishing with a chisel. The German makers seem to have used some kind of milling machine, typically leaving rounded ends in the mortise.

The weather is beautiful here this afternoon, and I have the planing bench outside on the patio. I'm going to work on the violin stick.

Bob
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Ed Shillitoe
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Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Syracuse NY

PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the Sai Gao tools are being sold? I got the impression that he made just one of each for his own use.

Ed
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whatwasithinking
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Joined: 26 Jan 2013
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Location: Washington State

PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ed!
He only has a few made at a time--maybe a couple dozen or so of most of them. You can contact him for availability. I'll probably visit his shop next week, and can get an idea of what's available, if you'd like.

Bob
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Ed Shillitoe
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Bob!

Yes, if you could find out what he has available I might be interested. He seems a bit reclusive! Nice Facebook page and You Tube videos, but no obvious phone, email or web site! I would be interested to visit him myself but I'm too far away.

Ed
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ctviolin
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Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 961
Location: Roswell

PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do have a Sia Gow bow making tool, obtained from Joshua Henry - a prominent modern bow maker. He obtained it for me, by ordering it directly from Sia.

It eliminates the need for a electric power lathe, for making the endpin - and the button.

Which can be made, by hand, with a small - bow powered - hand 'lathe'.
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Last edited by ctviolin on Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ctviolin
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Photos?
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whatwasithinking
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course he has posted both photos and videos of many of his tools on Facebook, but I can post a few photos here of what I have. He has just completed a couple of new planes, as an experiment. I should have taken photos of them today. Anyway, he wanted something that would fit beneath the tensioning cable, for final adjustments to the stick--they're really low-profile. Pretty slick! I don't know when or if he will be selling those.

I got some of his "compas" stick gauges today. He has three different ones he uses exclusively for roughing out a violin, viola, or cello stick, and one for final adjustments. He takes the stick down to what is probably a smaller dimension than many use before cambering--maybe 1mm bigger than final thickness.

I do like the final result, based on what I've seen of his completed bows!

Bob
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