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Question for Mr.Darnton
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ctviolin
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:19 pm    Post subject: Question for Mr.Darnton Reply with quote

Hey... I'm curious if you've ever used any wood that was domestic. (from the United States)
Or have you used only European wood?

Just curious, thanks
ct
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Michael Darnton
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Michael", Craig, Michael.....

When I lived in Michigan's Upper Peninsula I bought and sawed up a curly hard maple log and in the early 90s I used that for about 20 violins. It worked fine, though it was too heavy so I worked it as thin as I could manage to justify to myself. That's when I worked to weight, and tried to get backs down to 100gms. Most of those violins had backs that were 3.5mm or so in the center. I could deal with the weight now, and probably wouldn't thin it so much. That wood looked a lot like native Italian maple, so it wasn't visually jarring. The look of it was good for antiques, which I was making at the time.

I bought 20 western red cedar tops once and used two of them, around the late 90s. Over the years I have made new tops for both of those violins. I was not happy with the sound. George Wulme Hudson, a British maker, used cedar a lot, and his cedar-top violins are almost always a hard sell, for the same tonal problems I had. I'll probably die with that wood--I wouldn't want to even give it away. Terrible stuff.

I have the remains of 20 Engelmann tops that I'm using for bars, blocks, and linings. I made two or three violins from those and had a hard time selling them. I now think that the wood was too light, and people who use it tell me that I would better like the sound of heavier Engelmann (which is not usual and characteristic, apparently). I once had some wood from another source that was unspecified but I think was Engelmann, and it was heavier. That worked fine.

Bruce Harvey (Orcas Island) once sent me $200 worth of Sitka tops of all types that he selected as being similar to European, but I haven't made anything with them. I think he was right, and that they would probably work OK. They weren't too heavy, not too hard, and not too regular, which are all negative characteristics I associate with Sitka.

I bought several hundred dollars of Adirondak Red Spruce and used several of those tops. The resulting sound was fine, but the wood looked waxy-opaque under varnish. I understand now that this is a common characteristic of that wood. But for that, I would use it. That wood was heavy and dense, but not as hard as Sitka, in my experience.

In general, my feeling about tops, based on the above, is that too light is not good (and that goes for the Euro-spruce I use the most), but I can deal with too heavy. I know you use Sitka, and though I haven't yet, I think I could get it to work fine.

The American hard maple was fine, and I still have some I might use in the future. The figure I have would work best with antiques, which I hardly do any more.

I really hate the look of Big Leaf. To me it screams both American, and cheap; the wood doesn't have a class look. A lot of dealers feel the same about it. I have no idea what kind of violins it makes.

Most of the wood I use now was either bought around 1990 from SVS Tonewoods when they had an American office, or from a friend who hand-picked a lot of wood in Germany in 1984 and then stopped making violins. In both cases, I took what was offered to me. For SVS, I sent some thousands of dollars and took what he sent.

I'm not a rubber or tapper--If the wood is in range, I can make a good violin from it. The reason I do still experiment some is that I have had unexpectedly good results from wood others have rejected, and I've learned that a lot of the fussiness in wood choice is not factually-based, but comes from some sort of modern fantasy about what wood should be that doesn't relate at all to what violins need. I've seen too many great old instruments made of really "bad" wood to swallow most of the wood legends I've read. When I was making guitars, I made a new experimental model and because I didn't know how it would work, I used a junk top that was so flexible that it could (really!) be rolled into a 4-inch tube. The grain was wide, and considerably off-quarter, and it tapped dull. That was one of the best guitars I made, and I still hear about it from people who are around it regularly. There was a lesson to be learned there, and I'm glad I learned it early. As I said above, I think the one flaw that can't be gotten around is top wood that are too light. In the 80s and 90s light tops were a fad in the US, but I think most makers have since figured out that it just doesn't work well for the best type of instrument.

The best 3/4 cello I've ever played:


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Last edited by Michael Darnton on Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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JG
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow! Thank you for that, Michael.
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Linden
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael, have you ever used Mediterranean cypress or Lawsons Cypress for violin tops? Mr Fulton made quite a case for it back in the 1980's in an old VSA journal.
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Michael Darnton
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because of him, I bought a Lawson Cypress cello top at that time. I didn't ever use it, though, so I don't know anything there. When I did make the single cello I've made, I decided the cypress top wasn't high enough, so I still have it. I guess I should make four violin tops from it and use it, shouldn't I?

It seems light to me, so maybe I wouldn't like it. A lot of my wood sense runs to weight, if you couldn't tell. I don't think light wood makes the kind of instruments I like. Light species, light specific piece, whatever. It might be more about that than anything else. Writing all of this, I wonder how it would work if I made very heavy tops with very light wood. . . would that cancel the light wood curse?
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Linden
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Michael for your reply. I bought a couple billets of Lawsons Cypress back in the 80's but never used them as I took a 32 year break from making violins. I plan on starting a violin soon and I think I will give the stuff a try. When it gets first strung up I always have a bottle of good Brandy on hand just in case it sounds great, or just in case it doesn't. LOL
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Michael Darnton
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe I will let you try it first. :-)
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Chet Bishop
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:47 am    Post subject: low density wood Reply with quote

I can't recall his name at the moment...David Martin, maybe? There is a fellow who experiments with balsa violins. I have heard them, and they sound astonishingly good. They are not only thicker, but he added bracing all over top and back, to overcome the extremely low density. Strange-looking beasties.
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Michael Darnton
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doug Martin? The only criticism I have heard against those was that they become boring after a while (measured in minutes, not months). That's a criticism I take seriously because it was the problem with my light-topped violins. It's the kind of thing that folk musicians may never realize that some (not all) classical musicians figure out right away, because of the difference in the music. When players start spending tens or hundreds of thousands, or millions of dollars, it becomes a primary thing about having a wide range of different voices to access.

A violin that is thin or light, or thin and light, just dumps everything in your lap all at once--it doesn't leave anything back to draw out selectively. It's like looking for dinner in the kitchen: you don't want the cabinets to fly open and throw everything out onto the floor when you walk in. Nor do you want the doors stuck so you have to use a crowbar to get anything. Eaters and violinists need to be able to selectively choose what they want at the moment, without anything being forced on them, nor anything being too difficult to get at.
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Chet Bishop
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doug! that was the name. Smile
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byacey
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone have any experience with Red Maple? I have a few billets That I bought awhile back but haven't done anything with yet.
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Michael Darnton
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I forgot about that! I have a large pile of wood from Bob Wenzel. It works well, and sounded good. I stopped using it because I wanted a more European look.
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L P Reedy
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've used a lot of red maple and like it. Just glued up a back of nice kiln-dried red for my next fiddle. (The joint is off-center so we'll see what it looks like.) My red has nearly all been cut locally and paired with (I think) Sitka spruce from various lumberyards. I've used several European backs but can't tell much difference.

Disclaimer: I'm not a real fiddle maker. I just pretend to be now and then.

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ctviolin
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Darnton wrote:
I forgot about that! I have a large pile of wood from Bob Wenzel. It works well, and sounded good. I stopped using it because I wanted a more European look.


European look?

European In what way?
Is a "European look" more sale-able do you think?

In particular, for experienced buyers?
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Michael Darnton
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't tell you specifically. It's probably something that dealers would notice that most players would not. At any rate, I deal only with dealers, so they're the ones I have to keep happy.

Obvious things are snot marks and black streaks, grain width and consistency, subtle differences in the type of curl. When you're used to seeing only one type, the ones that don't fit pop out.
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