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Joining plate wood ?
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ollieken
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Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 269
Location: New Brunswick Canada

PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:57 pm    Post subject: Joining plate wood ? Reply with quote

When joining plate wood should you hollow the middle just a
little so when the glue sucks the two together it will also want to draw the ends tight what is your idea on this .? I know that you are not suppose to see light between the two pieces the whole length I Have led strip lights
to check with . Ken
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rs
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Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Posts: 188
Location: Missouri

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think it to be a good idea, Ken. If it is fit fine all the way north and south, the glue will only make it better. If it is not fit well in a spot, the very last place I want that to happen is at the waist. But that is just me.
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Randall Shenefelt
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L P Reedy
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Location: Brevard, NC

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't do any such hollowing but do understand the reasoning. However, I believe that it should be so slight that you can press the two halves together light-tight with your hands.
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ollieken
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:55 pm    Post subject: joint Reply with quote

RS Thank you for the reply this was just an idea I had as I have read post where some guy`s had trouble no mater how close the fit is .
Is it possible that the wood is more dense & the glue don't draw the joint the same just wondering . I guess it`s practice practice practice
as I have done my share of no fit some almost turned into a drinking problem . ... Ken
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rs
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ken, ideas are great and should always lead us to new horizons. My approach is that when the pieces are dry-fit, that is the worst possibility of a fit-up I should encounter. If I am satisfied with the dry, I can only be happy with the glued. Hide glue will improve the situation as it shrinks a lot, that is what makes it great glue. I want to see my joint in the worst possibility (and that is what it is before the glue) as hide glue will only improve it.

For what it is worth, when I overthink something, I usually run into trouble. I am not saying this is what you are doing here, Ken, but if you can learn from my faulty ideas, then you don't need to repeat them.

Tight dry-fits mean tighter glued fits. This is true in repairs and new work. If I am satisfied with the dry, I am always satisfied with the glued.

As far as the density and anticipation of what to expect and counteract, I never have had success with that type of approach.
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Randall Shenefelt


Last edited by rs on Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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rs
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Location: Missouri

PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is what I mean:

Several years back, I had a chance to meet a maker I had always respected but had never met up until then. He is very good. He was kind of like Micky Mantle to me. We both were showing our work at an ASTA convention. I brought him one of my violins and asked his opinion. He looked at it and was abruptly critical of two things, handed it back to me and said nothing more. I am not lying, I was crushed.

I am grateful now for his words. My problem, I realized, was I had been overthinking the process and over-compensating.

I humbled myself and got the point. My dumb ideas he criticized had to do with the execution at the corners and the ground I was using.

At the same show an east-coast dealer I have always respected gave unsolicited criticism in front of a client of mine about a violin she had just purchased from me. It had to do with the E-side flare I had put on the board. She had been happy with it until a minute before, but his words raised doubt in her mind. At first I thought it unfair of him to do that as I then had to take the violin back and put on a new board and ship it to her later. The reality is, it was not the dealer's fault. It was my fault for overthinking it and over-flaring the board to begin with.

This is what I mean when I say I have run into trouble when I have over-compensated things.
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Randall Shenefelt
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kjb
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes the hard truths are had to swallow sometimes, you are doing yourself a great favor by doing it though!
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rs
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ken, I know you said that you read that another fellow had a problem with final fit-up even when it fit well dry. Adding another comment, I have had similar problems as his with seams and boards if my glue was too thick. No amount of clamping could drive it out of the joint and thick glue doesn't shrink much for me when it dries.
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Randall Shenefelt
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ollieken
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Location: New Brunswick Canada

PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:44 pm    Post subject: Plate oint Reply with quote

Hi Randall Thank you for the reply & advice I can see now if the glue is thick it can cause some problem I Guess there is tricks in all trades
& thank you for sharing your experience .

I hope this post helps others as well with gluing .

Thank you KJb & Lp Reaey BTW I am building an F style Mandolin Got
the ribs done & carving out the back now I had one back almost done With Honduras Mahogany One piece & it got a crack so I was given a board from an apple tree that was cut years ago the Mahogany is hard to work tears splinters (Made one fiddle) well enough two finger typing for Now
Thanks again Ken
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rs
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Posts: 188
Location: Missouri

PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are welcome, Ken. We help one another on this forum more than any I have ever found. I give a lot of credit to the moderators we have for that, but also I have found all the members very supportive and helpful. I deeply appreciate it because violin making is a very tough business and oftentimes I need the support that comes from someone on board with me. I find that here.

I never have made a mandolin. I know that I will make one because my son plays all the strings, bowed and plucked and my wife plays the guitar so it is inevitable! And when I do, I would like to get some advice from you about what you did, what you liked, and what you did not like.
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Michael Darnton
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I probably do over think this...

I put just a tiny bit of spring in. One thing I have noticed is that if I put too much in, and rely on clamps to close the center (and they will) I can end up with dry, overclamped ends of the joint, out where the wood touched first and the joint will fail.

However, if I put in no spring at all, I noticed that sometimes wood that was pressed together with no clamping would slide and pivot on the center after the glue went on.

I have no idea what that is about, but now I work for minimum spring, such that when I do a final chalking of the joint I do get a trace of chalk in the middle but not a strong print until I press a bit in the center.

Check by putting one piece of wood in the vise and chalking it up, then gently lay the other on top, grab just one end between thumb and one finger, and slide it back and forth a bit. The chalk on the top piece will tell you what no pressure will do. Then do the same thing while pressing down very lightly on the middle of the sliding piece--minimum pressure. The first time should almost chalk well, the second should be perfect.

The trick with center joints, in my opinion, is to be very gentle in testing joint fits. If you push hard when testing them, you can usually force them together even if they're bad; you can force warps and twists out of the joint but they'll still be there without your hands and the joint will be bad.

For instance if you want a bit of spring, put one piece in the vise, lay the other on top, then get down to joint level and look, don't push. Look all around, not just through, to make sure it appears closed on both sides at both ends, and that the gap is minuscule, barely letting through light, and equal in the center on either face.

The other thing I do these days is not use clamps for the joint. If you put the clamp on perfectly, it will work perfectly. Often, however, it throws things a hair out of line from where you wanted, so little that you can't see until you start shaping the wood.

Don't over do spring!
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rs
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, Michael. I have never done it that way, but I think I will give it a try next time.
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Randall Shenefelt
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ollieken
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:29 am    Post subject: joint Reply with quote

Michael. Thank you, I will try to do it your way on some wood just to practice
You have never given me bad advice before so thank you for your
time to reply Ken
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Michael Darnton
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if I mentioned this before in a different context, but one thing that helps a lot with fitting things is to use minimal pressure. For instance, when fitting a bridge, don't push down--just let it rest on the top. When you do that, then when the object is put under pressure, everything changes and becomes much better. That's a secret of perfect bridge feet, bass bars, etc.

That's why I let the two plate pieces sit freely on each other while I assess--if it's good without pressure, when you push them together, they only will get better.

Another important test, while you have one piece in the vise with the other resting on it is to grip one end of the top piece between forefinger and thumb, down right at the end of the joint, down near the joint, and press it down, then do the same at the other end, with the other hand. Do you notice any rock at all when you switch hands? That's a twist, and you have to make it zero.
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Mat Roop
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Joined: 24 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rs wrote:
.....I have had similar problems as his with seams and boards if my glue was too thick......

you would think thick glue would be stronger and pull together more, but perhaps it means there is less water in the glue and therefore the glue shrinks less... or alternately, if the glue is too thick due to low temperature, then it could set too fast and the act of clamping can break bonds.
Cheers... Mat
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