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masterbass
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Joined: 09 Oct 2007
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:51 am    Post subject: New member Reply with quote

Hello every body.

First of all, sorry for my bad english. I´m a Spanish double bassist playing in a regional orquestra (www.ospa.es) I´m becoming interested in double bass construcction.

My new and challenging project it´s to varnishing a blank double bass, with an spirit varnish. I have some questions about it. May be someone can helps me.

I´m going to apply a first coat of linseed oil to seal the wood. ¿May I apply hot to a better absorption?
I have reading some about tea obscuring or coloring, for an antique look.

I arrange some spanish saffron to mix with a colourless varnish, for the yellow coat. How is to prepare the saffron?It´s enought to macerate in alcohol?may be cooking?

Thank you for reading me.
Best regards,

Fernando.
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MANFIO
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Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 458
Location: Sao Paulo

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi! Is this bass unvarnished, is it an unvarnished instrument you've got "in the white"? Or are you going to stripe the varnish of the instrument?

I would not stripe the varnish of an old instrument, the new varnish may be worse than the current varnish, being your first attempte in this field this will certainly occur, I think.

Don't soak linseed oil directly over the wood, it will kill the sound and look.

Varnishing is quite a complicated matter. If you are interested in building instruments I would reccomend you starting from the scratch, get a good book (such as Courtnall & Johnson) and start studying it.
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masterbass
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello
It´s a new instrument with a poor sintetic varnish, but the varnish is already scraped. Don´t worry, It´s not a master instrument.
I have diverse books (Chuck traeger, H.S. Wake, and others)In one of them, "Violin varnish and how to make it" by G. Foucher, apears the linseed oil as a good sealer and improving the sound and the beauty of the wood. Another local luthiers tool me the same. I´m confused now.
Any advise about the saffron?

Thanks
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Leif Luscombe
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Joined: 19 Mar 2007
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Location: Mount Elgin, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Thank you for joining the Violin Forum.

My own opinion of the linseed oil is that it may soak into the wood and make it heavy. Personally, I would not use linseed in this manner.

I have heard great things about Scott Hershey's Spirit Varnish DVD.
http://asmallapple.net/~violins/forums/viewtopic.php?t=42&sid=087b74afc260a73adbb85c1256b4a48c

Perhaps it would be a good investment.
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masterbass
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, possibly it´s soaks the wood but then ¿Why it´s recommended by some luthiers and appears in books?
What about the white of an egg to seal? It´s false too?
Thank you
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Andres Sender
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Joined: 23 Mar 2007
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Location: N. CA

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some people like the way linseed oil looks, so it was sometimes used, even in the last few decades by at least one well-known school I believe. But now it is avoided for the reasons already stated, or used very sparingly with a solvent.

Egg white could be fine although I don't know how well it works visually. It's really hard to beat shellac/spirit as an easy and successful sealer though.

It is VERY important that you experiment with your methods until you are satisfied with your results. Don't experiment on the instrument. Smile
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MANFIO
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Joined: 11 Apr 2007
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Location: Sao Paulo

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, don't use linseed oil over bare wood, it's a bad thing. Take a piece of paper and play with it in your hands... it will be crispy and make some sounds... now soak it with linseed oil and you will see will become "dead" in terms of sound. That's what will happen with your wood. But you can use a good oil varnish as ground, I've been using it.

I just make new instruments, you can pictures of some 17 inches violas here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7875988@N02/

I think I have disclosured my varnishing methods here already. Ciao!
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masterbass
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok. I think I have understood what you say. The more rigid the material, the more resonate and transmit the vibrations.

I arrange a "primer" spirit varnish uncoloured. It´s correct to apply it directly on the wood, as a sealer? If do, would be correct to add a little yellow color in this coats?
Thank you
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shershey
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Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 28
Location: Dillsburg, PA

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fernando,

After reading this chain I believe you now know not to use linseed oil. Don't do it, bad idea. I suggest a spirit ground of shellac as a sealing coat. Shellac can be tinted with color-fast alcohol dies but, I prefer using a combination of lemon and rubin mixed 50/50 with no color added. Then begin varnishing with a very small amount of color added to your first coats. Test strip before trying this on actual instrument to test your color results.

There are many good luthiers on this forum so listen to them, they know what they are doing!! Many with years of experience under their belts.

Scott W. Hershey
How to Spirit Varnish DVD
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masterbass
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello.
First of all, thank you for very much your advises!!!
I really apreciate them.
And for your patient too.... Very Happy
The recipe of lemon and rubin is very interesting. I´m going to think about it.

Thank you again.

Regards,
Fernando
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Leif Luscombe
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinting your spirit ground yellow or amber is a good idea. It will lend a richness of colour to your varnish that you will have difficulty achieving with colour varnish alone; white wood tends to "show through" if the bround coat does not impart some colour, just don't over do it.
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masterbass
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Joined: 09 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello, I have been testing with the saffron. I have boiled in alcohol, puting it into warm water and an amber colour has emeged.
Testing it in a piece of wood the result is NONE. ¿? I´m going to try with a more concentrated solution. Does anybody knows about tee as dye?How to use?
Thank you
Regards,
Fernando
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MANFIO
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Joined: 11 Apr 2007
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Location: Sao Paulo

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can use strong tea (3 tea bags for one cup of boiling water, let it oil for a while with the tea), but directly in bare wood.

Safron (zaferanno) is quite expensive, better sparing it for your paella or risotto alla Milanese!!!

Some old recipes ask 200 grams of safron (imagine the price of it!!!) to colour one liter of alcohol!!!

If you are working with an oil varnish roof tar (bitumen) in turpentine is a good source of colour, and cheap.
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Rob Fowler
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Joined: 21 Oct 2007
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Location: Buckie, Scotland

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manfio, I have a question for you about using strong tea on bare wood. Would it not stain more on the end grain of the top and back than on the top/back surfaces and the sides? Would the end grain not have to be sealed first? Sorry, that's now two questions!
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MANFIO
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use 3 or 4 strong tea coats... yes, the endgrain will get a bit darker, but since my varnish is quite dark, eventually the general colour will be even. We must test everything on wood samples.
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