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Stradivari The Violin and the Golden Number

 
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cmkaco
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:03 pm    Post subject: Stradivari The Violin and the Golden Number Reply with quote

I have a copy of Stradivari The Violin and the Golden number, in very good condition, on eBay. This is a boxed set that includes full size drawings on clear plastic sheets of 12 Stradivari molds with overlays showing analysis of golden number measurements the author believes were used to draw these 12 violins. Also included is the book by the same title. Here is a link to the auction:
https://www.ebay.com/sl/list/v2?draft_id=1270402738300&mode=ReviseItem&productEnforcement=false
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John Cadd
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:30 am    Post subject: Golden number Reply with quote

I was going to ask a question about the Golden Period but that came before the Golden Number highjacked the word to sell their stuff .
I don`t know if Golden Number products all came from the Golden Period . It would make more sense to work on the finest models if you wanted to sell more . But not to highjack the theme of the title it`s worth asking somebody who might know the answers to the main questions ; What were the features of Strad Golden Period violins that set them above all the other Strads made before that ?
Was the varnish suddenly different ? Did they change shape ? Was the wood found in a different forest than all the ones made before ? How many duds were produced in the Golden Period ? They would be collectors items on their own . Was it Arching ? Was it thicknessing . Were the internals rougher or smoother ? A lot of questions but all about one item . What was the difference?Or Spot the Difference. Was it easy to copy? Why don`t the copies work as well ? Was it clearly visible. Same question and same answer no doubt .
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Michael Darnton
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Basically, everything he learned had to come together at one point, and that was when it happened. Remember that at the end of that period he would have been in his high 80s, it would be normal for things to start to fall apart at some point and he wouldn't continue forever to be at his best. Nevertheless, the later instruments, though sometimes not as skillfully made, still mostly function beautifully, showing that he retained the important knowledge even as his hands began to fail him.
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John Cadd
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:50 am    Post subject: Golden number Reply with quote

In a book by Patrick Kreit ---The Sound of Stradivari---there is a mention of the change Strad made away from the influence of Amati. Beginning in 1690 and evolving to 1700 he reduced the height of the belly by as much as 6 mms. This timing coincides with the Strad Golden Period . The book refers back to a French maker from an earlier period .( Lucien Greilsamer Paris 1924} This comes under the Arching Category at the head of the page . Plenty to read there .
The theory that claims that flatter tops make better violins should mention that if the neck angle is kept the same then the bridge is relatively that much higher which affects the whole sound .
In the site the maker seems to be commenting on a book written by Patrick Kreit . It reminds me of the introduction to the book Don Quixote where the story is told as if revealing what this old book contained that he had come across . But Patrick Kreit is writing the whole thing himself , just to clarify that for myself .
There is a mention of Strad reducing the air volume with a flatter top and then adjusting the size of the soundholes to achieve the perfect combination . A well known thing in the guitar world . I don`t know if they followed or led the violins in that .
I knew Strad was influenced heavily by Amati but the change between 1690 and 1700 is well noted .
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Michael Darnton
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would disagree with some of those "facts", but I don't believe it would be a important discussion.

There are a lot of myths floating around about both Amatis and Strads. Quite a few of the parameters that people consider (without consideration) to be variable are in fact burned into the Cremonese formula and don't change much over time. For instance, here is a 1620 Brothers Amati f-hole overlaying a 1715 Strad f-hole. They *appear* to be very different alone but are in fact nearly identical. Many of Stradivari's "innovations" involve discarding Nicolo Amati's small details, but the overall changes are small and are more like a shout-out to the generation before that, as this f-hole is. I've always thought of Nicolo as the guy who took Cremonese violin making down a notch, himself, but was a great teacher who understood the Cremonese parameters well and passed them on.


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John Cadd
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:58 am    Post subject: golden Reply with quote

Would you say the Golden Period is a mythical part of the Stradivari story ? Or was it simply relief that he began making smaller violins after the Long Period ?
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Michael Darnton
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that people are great at evaluating things superficially. The long Strads are not especially long; they are narrow for their length (but not narrow by measurement). He made violins before and after that were of similar length, but they don't get noticed as much because they are normal proportions--wider to suit the enlarged length. Some of the Golden Period, especially 1715, violins are 359-360mm also, but they don't look long because they are also wide. The particular tonal quality of the long ones does not come from their length, either--I would say it's more from a narrower body combined with a longer stop. Incidentally, he also made a few short and narrow instruments at the end of the "long" period that were proportioned like the "long" ones, reduced all over, so I believe that he was fully cognizant of what he was doing.

For what it's worth, changing only the length of an instrument without modifying anything else has very little effect on the tone. A few mm plus or minus in an area mostly filled by block and representing a tiny spatial volume has very little effect. Differences from change in stop can be relatively large, however.

I am not sure what you mean by "mythical"--the Golden Period is a definite thing. Those violins represent the peak of the abilities of the Stradivari shop.

addl: Prompted by the original post above, I went and checked some of the many sources that propose that the violin is designed by Golden Section. Let's just say that for the most part you can only get there if your math skills and sense of precision are, uh, somewhat loose. I can only find one genuine Golden Section relationship so far. The rest that are proposed depend on a stretchy ruler. There are other methods that actually do work that don't involve Golden Ratios and stretchy rulers. Francois Denis' method of vertical proportioning based on simple ratios--1:2, 1:3, 1:4, etc.--is extremely precise, for instance.
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John Cadd
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:14 am    Post subject: Golden Number Reply with quote

The Liutaio Mottola site delves into fact and fiction about Myths about Golden Sections ,referring to Scrolls . It`s a good read and unbuttons lots of ways to uncover what people believe .
If the Golden Period is a fact then it`s easier to just rely on dates if there are no consistent physical features to refer to . The word mythical is just as much use as any other when so many disagree .
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John Cadd
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:28 am    Post subject: Scrolls Reply with quote

One of the best parts of the internet is looking at Images of Violin Scrolls to see how various viewing angles show attractive or ugly features of the carving . Some scrolls look squashed at the bottom. Not too unattractive . Others are thick and clunky . The top narrow thickness running down to a wide base , looking at the front , is something to absorb . There are many combinations of angles and sweeps that can have important effects .
Surely a carving forum has written about these things .
Then weigh up which peg hole positions will create difficulties for the player . Gaglianos had a habit of separating the E and G strings from the A and D .After a while the Strad scrolls look a bit ordinary but still elegant and well made .We have got used to them .
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John Cadd
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:04 am    Post subject: Golden number Reply with quote

The length of a violin internally that would have some effect would not really be the vertical line between blocks as dealers always mention the outer measurements . Internally the longest measurement will be diagonal lines between the upper and lower curved sides .
The stop length is interesting .Comparing the Big Two Cremona makers with Alessandro Gagliano we find the Gagliano soundholes set lower down . Does that position tap into standing soundwaves ? Then Guarneri in the Heron-Allen diagram cuts one soundhole higher than the other. That may have been an each way bet .
I am trying to remember the insect that creates a double body cavity which amplifies the sound it makes by scraping the fibres on it`s legs or wings. Stridulation . Tree Crickets do that . They make a leaf into a megaphone .They call that the sound of moonlight . You can hear it for 100 yards . That was nature`s way to create sound .
In an old film from the Moscow music school they have a young player performing and to me it looks as if the bridge has been shifted closer to the fingerboard to suit his smaller hands . Is that a sensible option ? I may be wrong about that .
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