Violin Forum/Message Board

Michael Darnton · Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:36 am Post subject:

I have forgotten to mention, but it's relevant to your post title, my second site http://violinmag.com

You will find there an explanation of how the Stradivari blocks were derived. Additional to that, it's a clue that when you make your corners they should be sections of circles up to the point where the outline changes, just as on the mold. This is the kind of detail you need to learn to do a credible job.
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dalpets · Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:13 pm Post subject:

Historically, much of this seems to be a black art, perhaps that's why it seems to be an exclusive club Smile

Sorry if I seem to be a vexatious details person, BUT I AM. I also try to use succint language to be understood,but these attributes do not define me.
So, thank you for all your help, albeit somewhat drawn out.

Michael Darnton · Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:14 pm Post subject:

Here's the problem regarding details: the lowest level of factory violin, some mass-produced German from 1900, or a new $300 Chinese violin will show more familiarity with what a real violin looks like than most individual makers are able to do. The training that those people is really good, and the people who oversee them have/had a sophisticated concept in their mind.

So as an individual, without that machine behind you, you'll have to struggle to make something that looks as good as a factory violin. Then beyond that you will need to understand the instrument in a way that gives you an advantage beyond what they have, both aesthetically and tonally, because at the bottom of it tone is a product of structure. And you will have to do that without someone watching constantly over your shoulder pointing out when you're running off the track.

Now this is not impossible at all, but it requires powerful observational skills, a good artistic talent, and lots of curiosity. This is why I stress the necessity of making a perfect mold, because that is the foundation of the whole thing. It's a bit of work, and you don't want to do it twice (but you certainly will, as you figure things out that you missed before!)
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dalpets · Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:32 pm Post subject:

Can a stringed instrument be made to be tonally excellent but not aesthetically pleasing or structurally conformist?

There seems to be evidence that some post modern or circa built violins are superior to those of the Stradivarius era. So is it a case of 'never say never'!

The only non conformist attempt I am aware of is the unsuccessful mucking around with the bass bar ie., integrated with the plate etc.,..... etc.

Is their more than one way to skin a cat?
If there is that is maybe why we may have the development of the ordinary man's 'fiddle'. Presumably a fiddle would always be regarded as inferior & looked down on by the establisment or how dare you try to enter my secret domain of knowledge.

Michael Darnton · Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:50 pm Post subject:

Well . . . sure, there are people who think a rusting-out car with missing windows that's been in a lot of wrecks is fine if it gets you there, or that a house doesn't need paint, a reasonably intact sidewalk, and a mowed lawn as long as it's watertight and stays warm in the winter. I'm not aware of anyone who goes out to intentionally make them that way new from the start, though.

Usually making second-rate shoddy stuff isn't considered a desirable goal.

Structurally non-conformist isn't a problem IF you come up with something better. Often it's just a desire to be different for the sake of being different.*

The "evidence" that modern violins are superior is highly suspect. The people who make modern violins are fine with the idea, but violinists don't seem to have gotten the news. There's a whole discussion to be had on that topic, but I will say that I find violinists to be quite clear on what they don't get from modern violins, and modern makers remarkably resistant to hearing them as long as they can gather a band of sycophants who will praise them and what they are already doing. I've always thought it more interesting to hear from the people who do *not* like what I'm doing. Bottom line: it's a bad strategy to believe that the great majority of users of what you make are deluded idiots who fail to understand how great you are.

* When I started making one of the greatest modern experts advised me that I would do well to understand Stradivari well because he of all of them had the most elegant solution for every single problem, and I could measure his inferiors by how far their solutions for the same problems failed to compete. He commented that I liked the eccentric makers because I was not yet informed well enough about how subtle perfection could be, and eccentricities were easier to recognize. It was really great advice. After you see that, your extensions of the art can be from serious and informed intent rather than random swats at difference for difference's sake.

I don't expect you to agree with me on this at this point.
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dalpets · Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:02 pm Post subject:

Your 'rusted out' analogy is off the scale, flippant & dismissive.

Please answer the question with the respect that it deserves ie., for SERIOUS attempts to diverge from accepted historical standards is it possible to make a tonally excellent violin.
Has anyone done it?

I'm not suggesting there should be I'm just questioning a perceived fixed & precious position that will only give scraps to 'club' outsiders.

If you don't have any wider experience with my question please say so.

The advancement of medicine & other areas have examples of professional sycophants holding back progress because they believe in their infintesimally short life times there is only ONE way, that in time is proved to be false, that being a very human & short sighted trait in the cosmic view of things.

The 'dark ages' is a classic example of a distressed humanity that has trouble advancing the human cause!

In a 'speck of time' thinking I guess it amounts to 'why would I mess around with any level of creativity if I might not make money from it'? I'm happy to sit back, not question my views & let it roll in!'

I am not being personal here in this last comment, but it is my perceived over arching view of what I am hearing viz., 'don't rock the boat' just follow along.

I'm happy to do so if that's all there really is. It's hard to not be a trifle bemused but that's the way humans are. Hardly anyone agrees on anything
They just gravitate to 'birds of a feather' positions they think are unanimous, but forensically speaking they are probably anything but.

So for the time being AS is of JC proportions in the minds of his adherents

dalpets · Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:54 am Post subject:

To be fair, our respective positions on all of this lie somewhere between the two, ie., if we for a moment dismiss confirmation bias & the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Make no mistake I get profound enjoyment from listening to violin concert pieces & aspire to learning some of the violin makers, in some cases, profound knowledge.

Have a good day

dalpets · Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:45 pm Post subject:

I have made a form from the Addie database. Unfortunately I did not keep a note of which form I chose for the 'Messiah'
Since then I have seen the width of the top neck block quoted as 50mm in a couple of places, but the Addie form I have made is 60mm. Is the latter acceptable?

I have now also become aware that the C blocks should ideally be slightly vertically angled. Apparently, doing so makes it easier for eventual separation. I didn't notice that subtlety om my initial venture there.

I think maybe I should start over with a new mold.
Which 1716 Messiah Addie mold do you recommend?
Thanks

Michael Darnton · Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:01 pm Post subject:

Modern blocks are wider because necks are now set into them rather than nailed outside. I use 55 x 16 upper and 50 x 13 lower.

The corner blocks don't need to be tilted if you cut the angle that is against the outer bout to 85 degrees or so to leave a small gap. Same effect, different method.

I think the Messiah is supposed to be the PG mold, but I have not confirmed that myself.
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