Violin Forum/Message Board

[dalpets]

I have a form S mold drawing with quoted full size dimensions of 346x 154.6 x 98x 195.2
I want to be able to check these full size dimensions once I have copied to full size.

What do the last 3 dimensions relate to?

BTW: the 1716 Messiah is quoted in the Addie database as PGMS21, but there is no mould there to work from.

What does the Addie Strad 'Forma S' relate to? A time period or some other metric?

Thanks

[Michael Darnton]

Measurements are traditionally listed as length, upper bout maximum, c bout minimum, lower bout maximum.

The S 1703 is a revision of the earlier S form..

The PG form is the PG form; the MS21 refers to its museum catalog number. None of the forms in that collection have their museum numbers attached.
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[dalpets]

So we have;

'S'............346x145.6 x 98 x 195.2
&
'S1703'.....345x 157.0x 102 x 196.0

Are there any repositories (or tomes) that summarize what effect these & other changes have on later iterations of particular violins?

For instance there is a significant change, above, in the upper bout maximum. What is the effect?

Are all iterations of a particular style usually regarded by the establishment as better than their predecessor?

Why do you think that a Messiah Strad mould has been omitted from the Addie database given that is long touted to be a landmark violin? Is it because it is essentially a museum piece that has never been played?

Have luthiers been interested in making copies of the 1716 Strad over time? Have there been any notable copies that have had orchestral merit?

In an earlier post you referred to the 'outer bout' Please explain?

There are deluxe pattern mold sets, Messiah model, available from a couple of online sites They are quite expensive & I'm not sure, for their price, if they are clearly superior to a lot of general stuff that you have branded 'ridiculously bad'. Are these sets seriously worth looking at for purchase? PM me, if you prefer, on this.

Thank You

[Michael Darnton]

The mold differences are mostly tonally insignificant.

As I said, the Messiah mold is there in Addie's files.

Any difference in the mold shapes will be drowned by your lack of experience in making violins. Pick one and go
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[dalpets]

"The mold differences are mostly tonally insignificant' you said.
Is that what I just heard from an expert? Surely not!
Serious commentary from elsewhere says that millimetres can make a huge difference. Your 'mostly' qualification doesn't save you from a non professional throw away line.

As such it's a loud put down of my junior inexperience & is aimed at putting me in my place!

Seems like I've worn out my welcome trying to get wider experience (how dare I) with a dismissal attitude to my questions! I had already chosen the S1703!

That's the sort of expected norm from a moderator to a junior newcomer who can't be bothered with perceived banality of a lesser individual ( go for the jugular!)
I've seen it all before.

[Michael Darnton]

I told you my truthful answer. If you don't like it, go find the people who will tell you what you want to hear, especially since you seem to know who they are. If you want me to agree with people I don't agree with, then yes, you are in the wrong place.
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new blog at my site! http://darntonviolins.com/blog
my work sites: http://darntonviolins.com and http://darntonhersh.com

[dalpets]

It's your high handed dismissive attitude that irks me. I am not a dim wit & will not be treated like one.

You keep harping on a perceived attitude that all I want is for you to agree with me. You must be on another planet. I have enough sense & humility not do that. What a silly peception! If I have, it was in a friendly debating sense that didn't aim to be vitriolic. I am here to learn not to take on your obviously superior experience.

Show me where I have done so! In fact the converse is true. I have asked you questions with the aim of learning & you bluntly dismiss them out of hand.

So, I am not in favour of your supercilious style.

I suggest you don't answer any further question I might have & let someone else have a go.

Your last answer is in the realm 'I'm always right', but I'm not challenging that, but just maybe your in the zone of not wanting to listen to other experts. They do exist you know. . Whilst forums, as a rule, are largely full of friendly collaboration they can have an incestuous element that defies reasonanle outside reasoning, so maybe you need to get out more.

I expect courteous discussions here, not ones that have a one sided superior attitude. I am reminded of a church minister who once said to one of his parishioners 'how would you possibly know, you haven't had the training' He lost the common touch & wanted to display his superiority. So there is the essence of the matter.

No, I'm not in the wrong place, but maybe you are.

[DonLeister]

Dalpets, I know Michael won't get bothered with your characterizations of his demeanor but I think he is just being 'to the point' with you in order to save some time. He has experience working with some of the most knowledgeable people in the business and has handled and photographed many many very fine instruments.

I don't know of ANY one else in the trade that would bother to read or respond to the general public in an online forum like this about the specifics of instrument design and building so often as he does. We are fortunate to have him!

Over many years I have seen him repeat himself over and over when he offers his expertise to so many online posts from beginning makers, so please trust that he is not totally dismissive of your interests.

[dalpets]

DonLeister;

Well you say ‘that he won’t get bothered’ (care) could mean that you are labelling him a sociopath or an egomaniac, at the very least a narcissistic individual.


I look forward to respectful dialogue with genuinely supportive users.

[Mat Roop]

Dalpets... You need to listen and THINK about what Michael says.... he is one of the most helpful, knowledgeable and generous people in the business both on the forum and privately.
... Be thankful!

[dalpets]

Mat Roop;
Not to me he isn't!
See my post of Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:05 am.
He didn't answer any of my questions there, just swatted me away as an irritant.
Maybe he didn't know the answers!
I didn't realize that a coterie here treat him as god like!
I have never worshippped any entity & I'm not going to start now!
The real problem is that Darton arcs up to the suggestion that he is not the only person that can be right. Professional narcissm is evident here!. A dictator king without any clothes!.

Your long track record here, at first glance, seems to be honorably helpful & I thank you for your views. Unfortunately, as generalised as they are, they do not really deal with the essence of my concerns. As such they seem only to be a public support statement for Darnton.

I would have thought that the need for detailed & logical, almost obessional thought processes necessary for violin making, would have translated into sound reasoning (no pun intended) in other areas, but what I see are emotive overlays that don't help the cause, they just muddy the waters.

have a good day.

[John Cadd]

What happened in the world in February 2022 . Did it go wrong for everyone on the planet. Well no ,just mainly in Ukraine . Time is a great healer ---I hope . I usually refer to Mr Darnton in a formal way as his knowledge is far beyond mine. But dalpets is not imagining the put down . I could feel that over here in UK on the other side of the planet . Guessing who the question comes from is what Mr Darnton does . Sometimes it gets away from the cold ,clinical dissection of an objective ,impersonal answer . But he does not actually know who you are . That can be the problem .Also he meets a lot of Americans . Their personal style can be pushy , abrasive etc . You know what Americans are portrayed like in the media . So each American has to build some kind of defence tactic to cope with that . There is a very big cultural difference between USA and Australia . I think you can both come to a truce after the dust settles .
I almost forgot what question I was going to ask . Better to leave it for a while .

[John Cadd]

dalpets , the put down was nothing really. Lack of experience fits the bill here . It`s nothing . Mr Darnton has worked on violins for 40 years but on top of that he works in Chicago across the road from the Chicago Symphony orchestra . That is a top class orchestra with amazing violinists right where they can interact day to day . How lucky can you be to live in that environment . Be nice to Michael . He teaches newcomers in courses . Some verbal habits develop to keep the students on course and save them wasting time on useless diversions . No crucifixions today please .The world needs more peace .

[John Cadd]

I hope nobody is upset by dalpets erruption. You have to say he got off to a flying start .Thoughts of Ben Johnson breaking the world record come to mind (before we realised he was breaking the rules ). Say a prayer for him .

[John Cadd]

Zygmuntowicz .I had to write that down quick in case I forgot . He started with the Heron -Allen book . Heron Allen was told what to do by a historical maker but his book records all sorts of odd ideas that he democratically recorded . There was a kind of magazine series much like an internet forum .If you sift out the odd bits you can make a working instrument .You have to sort out the carpentry side for yourself . It`s not perfect and my Latin is rubbish .