Violin Forum/Message Board

bulerias1981 · Member Joined: 16 Jun 2007 Posts: 41 Location: Beacon, NY

Hi all. First time for me joining a back. Having difficulties. I've used a few different types of planes, even a shooting board. Cannot get both edges perfectly straight for joining. This is driving me a bit mad. Please give me your input. Thank you.
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"I only write the notes as written, it is god that creates the music." J.S. Bach

Dave Chandler · Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:05 am Post subject: Joining the back

Glad to hear I'm not the only one!! I'm really looking forward to hearing some input on this (I was embarrassed to ask it myself). I should probably just listen .... but here's my thoughts anyway.

I've used a plane, get as close as possible, then clamp a "shooting board" to the edge of my work table (making sure its a proper 90 degree) with a fresh piece of 220 sandpaper, and run each piece flat on the table against the sandpaper. You have to keep sweeping the sawdust out of the corner or it'll affect your final edge. You really have to concentrate on how you apply pressure, making sure its evenly applied, or you'll get ends that won't quite meet. I've gotten OK edges would like better.....

I'm thinking next time I'm going to do the same, but take it a step further. I plan to heat the wood, wet the edges with super hot water, let them swell a little, then clamp the hell out of it and let it thoroughly dry increasing pressure as it dries and shrinks. Seems to me that any small low spots should swell out and with good pressure remain pressed closely to the opposing side even after it dries. THEN reheat, glue and clamp. What do you think?
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Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill

"I took the road less travelled, and now I don't know where I am." Marco Polo

bulerias1981 · Member Joined: 16 Jun 2007 Posts: 41 Location: Beacon, NY

sounds good I guess. I used the shooting board in a different way. I clamped down the wood and used the shooting board by hand. I think your way is better.
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"I only write the notes as written, it is god that creates the music." J.S. Bach

Jeffrey Holmes · Member Joined: 03 Apr 2007 Posts: 90 Location: Ann Arbor

The difficulties you're having may be due to how your planes are prepared and set up. It takes a good bit of "tuning" to get them working "right".

I've never seen a sandpaper joint I thought was worth the time to accomplish... Personally, I use a block plane to get things in range, and a jointing plane to finish things off (I have both metal and wood jointing planes). I don't use a shooting board, although other makers I know do... Some make the plane stationary and run the plate/joint over the blade. Others make the plate stationary and run the plane over the joint. I've done both.

When gluing, some makers clamp the joint, others just rub the joint 'till it "sticks" and set it off to the side. I've also done both, but prefer a rubbed joint. I feel it confirms that the joint was well concieved. Nothing preventing one from doing both, however (rubbing then clamping).

I feel a bit odd linking threads from another discussion site, so I won't, but if you visit Maestronet discussion boards and use the search function to find threads in "The Pegbox" under "joining plates", there is quite a bit of information/opinion posted there.
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Jeffrey

http://holmesviolins.com

Dave Chandler · Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:00 pm Post subject: Joining back

Thanks Jeffrey, I'll check that. It may be that just fine-tuning the blades is what is holding me back from having a good result. Will try again, and will definitely visit the Maestronet site (but I'll be back!).
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Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill

"I took the road less travelled, and now I don't know where I am." Marco Polo

H.R.Fisher · Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:40 pm Post subject:

Hi Bulerias, The perfectly adjusted power jointer in my sons cabinet shop makes this process a breeze,don't tell anybody. Wink

Henry

Jeffrey Holmes · Member Joined: 03 Apr 2007 Posts: 90 Location: Ann Arbor

bulerias1981 · Member Joined: 16 Jun 2007 Posts: 41 Location: Beacon, NY

I'm pretty sure my planes are in tune. I think for me its a matter of technique. How to clamp the piece of wood. Since the wood that I'm planing is about 30 mm wide or so, making the edges of the plane sole not flat and stable on the piece of wood. Making it possible for the plane even to tilt, also rendering it difficult to hold while planing.
I've spent about 4 hours or more total trying to do this. I'm at the point of going mad! I've used my small Lie-Nielsen block plane, my Stanley block plane which is a bit bigger, and even my Stanley no. 5 plane, which is about 14" long. The blades are all very sharp. I even tried brushing on hot water to the joint edges, making it a bit easier to cut while push the plane on the wood. Also put paraffin on the sole of the plane.
Tried a shooting board, but I rather do this with a plane. I also don't want to use a electric jointer. I need to aquire this skill. Many violin-makers join the backs and sides. So this is something I should learn.
I need a new approach. Probably start with how I'm clamping the wood, how I'm planing.

So I'll refine my questions here.

1) What planes do you use? (if multiple, what sequence)

2) What is your method? (clamping the wood, and working with the plane)

3) Do you use tricks such as chaulk, wetting the jointing edge and so on.

I have checked in the pegbox forum, and no one really gets into detail. Thats what I'm trying to get at. If anyone is as kind to help us new amateurs along with this, my deepest gratitude would naturally be given. Thanks.
_________________
"I only write the notes as written, it is god that creates the music." J.S. Bach

KenN · Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:18 pm Post subject:

I always have more trouble with the belly. Hold the joint together and look for gaps while holding it up to a bright light. Check both sides. I use a block plane to get it so there are no gaps, then finish it off with a joiner.
You might try clamping the plane in a vise and sliding the wood on it. That eliminates any twist or bending the vise may put in the wood. You could be clamping the plates too tight, planing them flat, and then when you take them out of the vise they're not flat anymore.

Jeffrey Holmes · Member Joined: 03 Apr 2007 Posts: 90 Location: Ann Arbor

OK; I'll try. Some of what I mention you may already be doing... but I don't think getting too detailed will hurt anyone but me. Smile

First I flatten the face of the plates (so that there is no twisting or cupping), as I use that surface for a reference.

bulerias1981 · Member Joined: 16 Jun 2007 Posts: 41 Location: Beacon, NY

Very nice. That is very helpful. Thank you! I'll let you know how it goes.

How do you go about achieving a spring joint? I assume its planed flat first.

I've joined a top plate with little to no problem. But this maple is giving me grief. The hardness of the wood naturally makes it harder to push the plane even with a smaller setting on the blade. I wonder if its this particular wood as well.
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"I only write the notes as written, it is god that creates the music." J.S. Bach

Jack H. · Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:53 pm Post subject:

Jeffrey Holmes · Member Joined: 03 Apr 2007 Posts: 90 Location: Ann Arbor

Dave Chandler · Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:11 pm Post subject: Joining plates

I spent the better part of a day reworking my plane, and then working on technique with some 24" long pine 2x4s until I had a perfect seam. It seems good sharp plane is just the starting point, then working the technique to find that last little high spot. Time well spent. Thanks for all the suggestions.

On the side ---- Wifey-poo says I gotta sell something before I can order more wood. I've got 4 violins now, so guess I'll sell my hunting rifle. God knows I need all these violins.
_________________
Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill

"I took the road less travelled, and now I don't know where I am." Marco Polo

bulerias1981 · Member Joined: 16 Jun 2007 Posts: 41 Location: Beacon, NY

Ok gentleman,

After spending nearly 3 months on trying to join the back, Ive nearly thrown down the towel. I've been going crazy trying to do this.

I have ground my 3 planes dead flat. To do this, I bought a 18"x12" slab of granite that machinists use to check flatness on objects. I put different grits of emery cloth down with a spray adhesive and ground the soles of the planes on here. This is what the flatness is like on my planes..

I've tried different methods or techniques to join. I've tried clamping and planing the top...

I've also tried using the granite slab and a plane on its side while the wood being clamped down to the surface..

I have also tried wetting the edges to make the cuts easier, I've tried chaulk and so on.
I just cannot seem to get the entire joining surface to contact completely. There is always this annoying gap somewhere. My plane blades are sharp as hell, I even tuned the chip breaker on my jointer plane. I sharpened the blades on dimond stones, so I know the cutting surface is straight. Also checked to verify. I've tried all my hand planes, I've even tried a shooting board, but didn't get far with that. I want to develope the skill to do this with a plane.

As far as the techniques go, has anyone done it any of those ways?
_________________
"I only write the notes as written, it is god that creates the music." J.S. Bach