Violin Forum/Message Board

[John Cadd]

I noticed one very unusual thing about looking and noticing when I did a short course to learn typing .In the locker was a thick file of typing examples done by various people.All foolscap pages with no paragraph gaps .Just fully covered with typing . No particular subjects .I turned the pages for a few seconds and noticed how fast any spelling mistakes popped out . Then I began to see how quickly that worked . Each page turned I saw 4 or 5 mistakes scattered around in split seconds. I still don`t know how eyes and brains can do such a thing .Not a thing I had practised . Still something of a mystery .

[Michael Darnton]

I think that's a really excellent comparison! You know the whole shapes of thousands of words--you don't need to spell them to know something is wrong. You scan the page, and there are shapes that pop out that aren't in the database.

It's the same process. I suspect that speed reading capitalizes on that, too.
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[John Cadd]

In the simple watch bracelet example the few people discussing were familiar with comfortable ones they owned. Without detailing why they felt better there was very little useful information exchanged .That happens when information falls into little black boxes mentally and only the maker`s name is used.
A more violin oriented question I have is about Area Tuning of the plates. It was clearly described and useable details were put into words. Different maker`s names were given and the different tunings were also described in just as much detail .
Have you personally ever tried the method ? Better still would be to follow the method exactly for one violin and then instead of making harmonious relationships between the areas ---make as many dischordant relationships. Do almost a reverse to compare the sounds.
To avoid another black box arising we need to say to newcomers that Area Tuning is described in the internet in enough detail with clear diagrams .The "inventor" did not work out the relationships himself but simply "noticed " how famous violins sounded when he held them in his hands when testing the sounds . Unlike the Wright Brothers mistakes would not have been fatal .
There are at least two completely different methods of Area Tuning.One is from a Russian I think which works on diagonal stripesof the wood. I can`t see how that would work at all .I can`t prove it would not though . The one I was interested in is achieved by using a scraper to tune patches of the plates to make maybe an octave relationship between well separated areas. The amount of wood removed is minute. It would not affect the arching or even the weight unless you use a ridiculously accurate weighing machine. But played in the white you can alter area relationships . Try to follow the exact instructions first. Then rescrape to make all the relationships "wrong" according to the first state . You then have the two comparable versions using the same wood . It`s important in a way to test these theories in practice and kill them off properly with reliable experiments .
A pile of violin books on a CD may reveal many half tested ,half baked ideas .I am ashamed to say I made some violins following the area tuning method. I tuned (scraped ) the violins as instructed , but lost interest before the fingerboard was fitted and before varnishing . I was too busy with other things in life . Now I`m so deaf I may never know .The end . ( joke ).

[Michael Darnton]

I am mostly concerned with duplicating the effects of the great Cremonese instruments. Many of these have been regraduated. When this has been done, it's usually clear that it has. IF micromanaging plate tuning, by ANY scheme, is important, a random attack on thicknesses by someone who doesn't use a tuning scheme should destroy the original tuning, right? However, it seems that those instruments are still better than their contemporaries' in other cities.

I think the only proper conclusion to draw is that tuning plates in any way is an insignificant contributor to what makes Cremonese violins special.

As a sort of reverse proof, I've noticed over the years that the violins of makers who are known for and advertise that they do some sort of tuning generally don't appeal to me at all. I would call them, generally, loud and aggressive with no subtle qualities--"simple". That, to me, is the exact opposite of the Cremonese tonal model that I and so very many listeners and players have preferred for the last 300 years or so, though it can be appealing to modern unsophisticated violinists who think that volume of noise is the whole thing and have never experienced a really fine instrument and thus don't know what to do with one.

So, double proofs that tuning doesn't work to do what I want to hear. With that seen, I have never bothered to try to tune anything I made.

Hint: you can do a lot more with the overall distribution of graduations, especially on the top, in ways that don't even draw attention to someone who's casually measuring what you've done and not already tuned in to this idea. For instance, if you make a top 2.5mm everywhere, do you bring it up to the 3.5mm at the edge under the purfling all at once, near the edge, or do it gradually? How gradually, exactly? What do you do with this at the ends, where the edge of the block platform can be 4mm or more?
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[John Cadd]

That`s a good counter argument against the Hill tuning method.Have you wondered if the name Hill is just a coincidence and is he related or connected with the dominant Hill family that have such a great reputation for accuracy and truth in the violin sphere . Have you ever quietly tapped any famous violins , when nobody was looking ,out of curiosity , to test the Hill theory ?
Your counter argument is preferable to Maestronet patrons who jump in with both feet with "It`s all nonsense ---In my Opinion"---but no thought out reasons for the opinion. There is seldom any reason for or against for the opinions. So what is my reason to back away from the theory? He mentions being very rigorous in tuning "exactly" as if he got a direct message from Cremona with a very , very old telephone. That tuning right to the edge of the tuned areas would surely interfere with the tapering of the plates and impinge on physical stability apart from getting too thin if he began with slight dimensions .
Sam Zygmuntowitz`s violin was mentioned as agreeing with his theory . If Mr Hill could not get a reply about that ----You know already what I`m going to ask . Have You ever asked him? You must have heard of each other . Music is a small world they say . That`s where the tap notes coincidence could come into the picture. Maybe those areas sound like that by just making a violin the easy way .Just like Strad did .
Delving through the Hill method (he does go on a bit ) he mentions using a light box. He does not say why he uses the light box. Light boxes do not seem to attract any special "Nonsense in my opinion " kind of negativity . But denser knots have been included in some fine violins without disaster . Light boxes flying below the "Nonsense Opinion " radar .
Here is part of my interference theory popping up . Inside the first violin I made ,before I thought of theories ,I wanted to be sure the centre belly join would hold so I put diamond cleats all along the centre. Now much later repairing a Guitar which had been stepped on and had the Brazilian back split into three parts --Edit here --I noticed the top had a line of large diamond shaped cleats down the centre join.---I got that wrong .It was a line of oblong rosewood cleats that basically just made the join stronger but may accidentally have done something to the tone . End of edit . This guitar is a Telesforo Julve model. Other makers don`t do that . Maybe he wanted to reduce cross vibrations causing interference . (Only maybe .)edit .
The oblong cleats (edited ) are spaced out .Unlike the continuous strip all along the back--which is normal practice . An extremist would have continuous strips front and back . Maybe Mr Hill is getting too extremist . He tries hard but ,really , he does go on a bit .

[Michael Darnton]

This is a really touchy discussion.

I have quite a few people who come to me for adjustments. For the most part they are professionals, at quite a high level. I don't market myself in this; the objective of our shop is to sell expensive instruments and maintain those for our customers, not service people off the street. But the people who find me are generally fun to deal with because they are talented and knowledgable, not amateurs, and they are demanding and keep me on my toes; I learn about what I do from their input. No, I have learned *everything* about what I do from their input. They find me by word of mouth.

What they tell me is that for adjusting it's a wasteland out there; that most shops can't properly adjust a violin to the level they need. That they can spend hours going in circles and spend a lot of money not getting what they need. When they come to me it takes a couple of minutes, and it's done right. I have several Strads I adjust regularly, del Gesus, Amatis and other classical Italian instruments for concertmasters, touring musicians. Not students. I have players who tell me what's wrong and I fix it and they don't bother to test the results because they know it will be right.

So I'm going to say that I know something about violins that most people in the field don't.

When you go to Maestronet or here, or anywhere, you aren't getting to talk with that type of person. They might be there, but you can't know who they are. Most of what you get told is garbage, in proportion to what's out there in the real world. The people who really know generally aren't there anyway or don't post. There are people out there who I respect; when I see something that they have worked on, I suck up every single detail hoping to see something I wouldn't do, then trying to figure out why they did that. I have more fingers on one hand than people on that list. Only one of them has ever posted, maybe twice, on an internet forum.

So there's the problem: you don't know about the skills, talents, ears of the people who are telling you things or highly promote themselves for commercial reasons. If you look at directories of shops you'll see that everyone advertises that they are tonal experts and do appraisals. You'd be a fool to believe that there are that many tonal experts and legitimate appraisers out there in the world.

So you need to figure out who to listen to. The list is, in my opinion, extremely short. Maybe I'm not even one of them. I like a comment that someone on Maestronet once said, "Michael may or may not be the best out there, but he's the best one who's willing to talk to me." :-)

But I know that people who spend all their time in their shop not interacting with a variety of real players and a variety of real instruments, making up ideas that sound good to them, judging their own work by their own standards without a lot of outside input FROM THE RIGHT, QUALIFIED, PEOPLE, would not be first on my list, and I would not pay a bit of attention to what they say anymore than I would take road directions from a two-year old.

Have you found this site? http://www.violinresearch.com/
[provides link, then takes off hat with devil's horns on it]
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[John Cadd]

Well thankyou for such a unique perspective on the "violin scene ". Think of all those frustrated players .

[John Cadd]

The CD s with hundreds of old violin books contain a few major important books which help to give a general perspective about the violin world. The Hill book is an important and reliable source. For players the Leopold Auer book about his teaching methods brings in the other side of the subject. You would be very uncultured to be chipping and sawing away without thinking of the people who would be using your craftwork .
Several writers in various books must lead you to the obvious conclusion that following the examples set by Stradivari and Guarneri will produce a much better result than improvising and doing your own thing. Doing it "My Way" proved that Frank Sinatra was not a famous violin maker .
One book about Strad violins mentions the air volume inside. The writer had a delightfully simple formula to keep him on track. He measured the side (rib) depths. Then measured the total plate thicknesses if you laid the plate on a table .Table surface to top of plate surface. By adding the total of plates and sides and keeping that figure in his mind he stayed inside a safe zone. So higher belly and back gave shallower sides (or ribs ). The untouched Messiah violin has a flatter top ( so they say ). "So they say" was a popular phrase by the world`s worst poet .(se Bridge over the River Tay ).