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crntral plate joints +planes
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jethro
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Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 178

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:24 am    Post subject: crntral plate joints +planes Reply with quote

I have been doing my central plate joints first with a small bench jointer
(delta) - with pretty poor results - and following with a home made sanding
board rig which some times helps and some times does no good at all.
I have pulled my hair out trying to get the jointer to work better but I
think it's hopeless (its a delta..... customer-no-service -ect.)
I know there is a way to cut perfect joint with a perfectly sharp plane.
Do I turn the plane on it's side clamped to the bench with guide runner
boards before and after the plane to guide the workpiece. Is this the right
geometry for this? I have nice norton water stones to get the plane blade Hair-cutting sharp AND straight. The jointer allways leaves high
and low spots which look to be about .010-.015 inches so the plane won't
have to be taking much off. Is there a special way to make the guide
runners? How do I get THEM straight ! ??????
Can someone give me a rough Idea here ???????
It seems like I spend a couple of day trying to get a perfect joint and I
can never get it perfect......

PS Is it important to plane(or however) off the backs of the plates to
be very close to flat so they will lay precicely down onto whatever is
guiding them through the cut (be it jointer or plane) ?
I have noticed that sometimes my joints get a double -fascet type of
geometry- like the plate rocks a little as it is passing across the fence
in the jointer.

Tim
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Jack H.
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Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 346
Location: Israel

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use a shooting board for certain jobs that need to be done. It is essential as a vice and a worktable. It is important to get the bottom of the plate flat first. You can hold the wood down in any means; bench dog (integral or jury rigged) and shooting board all do the same job. Measuring with a very high quality straight edge is a must. As for the plane angle. That is correct, tilting the plane to the side (left side for right hand) will help the blade slice easier into the maple, though this will not work on a shooting board for the center joint, only when you vice the wood together and plane.

Make sure there are no twists by checking it corner to corner. For the center joint I like to use a shooting board although at first I used to vice the 2 halves together in a vice, the shooting board makes for easier checking of angle and such. Make sure also your plane stands at 90 degrees on its side and make sure the blade takes an even cut, not thicker on one side that is. by using a shooting board of good quality ply wood you will be ensuring that the angle is dead on and the surface will not mar the newly planed flat surface. You will be able to take off those high spots in a jiffy and get it all flat and square ready for joining with no black glue line demarking a centerline. Work on a few 'undesirable' pieces of spruce and maple as practice so you do not jockey back and forth and whittle away perfectly useable piece of tone wood.
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actonern
Super Member


Joined: 15 Aug 2007
Posts: 444

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A contributor to poor results can be introduced if the act of clamping your plate has the effect of twisting it. the wedge shaped plates are often out of parallel, and clamping them to hold while planing bends them somewhat. When unsprung, the perfectly flat plane surface becomes slightly off...
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violinarius
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Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 171

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:13 am    Post subject: Re: crntral plate joints +planes Reply with quote

jethro wrote:
I have been doing my central plate joints first with a small bench jointer (delta) - with pretty poor results
It seems like I spend a couple of day trying to get a perfect joint and I
can never get it perfect......
PS Is it important to plane(or however) off the backs of the plates to
be very close to flat so they will lay precisely down onto whatever is
guiding them through the cut (be it jointer or plane) ?
I have noticed that sometimes my joints get a double -facet type of
geometry- like the plate rocks a little as it is passing across the fence
in the jointer. Tim


If you go to any general woodworking forum, you will find a bevy of questions dealing with power jointer's. The set-up is critical with these machines in order to produce good work.

The blades must be sharp, and installed correctly.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-572604587960322121&hl=en

The tables must be flat, and not warped, twisted, concave or convex.
The tables must be in plane with each other. Co-Planar.
The cutting head must be parallel to the tables.

http://www.americanwoodworker.com/aspx/contentdetail.aspx?ContentId=1041&PageNo=1


http://www.americanwoodworker.com/userdocs/articles/199912/jointers/page3.html

So setting up a jointer is a lot of work, and then you need to have the right technique to feed the wood correctly.

Taking small bites off is always a good way to get nice fits, rather than hogging wood off.

Practice wood is a good idea before going to the expensive stuff.

If the bottom surface of the violin plate is not truly flat, then when you pass it through the jointer, and you get a slight wobble, you are changing the geometry of the cut, and this will effect the final outcome. Try getting the bottom surface flat before running it through for the central joint.

Then when everything is working just right .... do 1000 joints!
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jethro
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Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 178

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:48 am    Post subject: jointers (!) Reply with quote

Yes I have been through the jointer setup flowchart hell !!!!
What I got was a delta jointer that had bent tables. Delta wouldn't
do anything about it. Also on this small machine there is NO way
provided to adjust the tables (short of shim stock washers- I tried them
too) ! Even a crappy sears has adjusting screws inderneath. I am
tempted to buy new tables but I am not convinced it will ba capable of
making a straight joint even then ! I secretly think that the design of
this small bench jointer is defective - but I suspect Delta won't admitt it !
That's why I am now trying a plane / shooting board setup.
I will explore some of the woodworking forum links ..... Thanks to all !

Tim
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M_A_T_T
Member


Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 43

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this the Delta 6" Benchtop Jointer? I had one and also got lousy results with it. It's the reason I switched to handplanes.
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jethro
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Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 178

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:29 am    Post subject: delta 6 inch jointer Reply with quote

Yes Matt it is the same little *%$#@&% ! Too light to be a good boat anchor !
I have worked with it for over a year and never got a single useable
joint out of it. The table were bent was one problem. I told Delta customer-no-service and their reply was that if they were bent -they would have to be replaced ! If that's an example of their "support"
I will NEVER but anything Delta again. I spent 700$ for a band saw but
got a Jet. I could have bought a Delta........... I don't think it is capable of cutting a straight joint !
I am about to look up the shooting board links now !

PS The Jet bandsaw wasn't anything fancy- just adequate. Nothing bent
or out of whack. Got the 1 hp 14 inch. I probably could have done just
fine with a 12 inch but the 14 had a little better accesories and more
aftermarket parts available. Sears has a fantastic looking 14 inch saw
but as usual for them they shot themselves in the foot by having it use
a nonstandard blade length. -- AND -- sears only made 2 blades for it !
A shame because it was a dynamyte looking saw ! Heard it was made by
Rikon.

Tim
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ollieken
Super Member


Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 281
Location: New Brunswick Canada

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:49 am    Post subject: Bandsaw blade Reply with quote

Have you tried the Viking low tension Ten Teeth per inch There is just enough tension to stop it from fluttering & it will not run out

I was watching a man at the wood working cutting circles the size of a
dime like ctuuing cheese I had to have one .I Belive Lee Valley has them around All i have is a ridgid saw you can cut the line or leave it no running
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ollieken
Super Member


Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 281
Location: New Brunswick Canada

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:50 am    Post subject: Bandsaw blade Reply with quote

Have you tried the Viking low tension Ten Teeth per inch There is just enough tension to stop it from fluttering & it will not run out

I was watching a man at the wood working cutting circles the size of a
dime like ctuuing cheese I had to have one .I Belive Lee Valley has them around All i have is a ridgid saw you can cut the line or leave it no running
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Jason Cooke
Junior Member


Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 9
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:54 pm    Post subject: Creating a tight joint Reply with quote

I put the jointer plane in the vise sole up. As daunting as it might sound to try to move the plate across the plane sole, I find it easier than balancing the plane sole on a stationary plate edge. The key is the finely honed iron and then making single strokes the length of the plate.

Big caveat #1: I am just learning the craft and the more experienced makers in this group no doubt can refine the above description or have other preferred approaches. Big caveat #2: I confess to being a hand tool addict and using a hand plane for this task isn't everyone's cup o' tea.

Good luck! Jason
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Jason Cooke
Junior Member


Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 9
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:55 pm    Post subject: Creating a tight joint Reply with quote

I put the jointer plane in the vise sole up. As daunting as it might sound to try to move the plate across the plane sole, I find it easier than balancing the plane sole on a stationary plate edge. The key is the finely honed iron and then making single strokes the length of the plate.

Big caveat #1: I am just learning the craft and the more experienced makers in this group no doubt can refine the above description or have other preferred approaches. Big caveat #2: I confess to being a hand tool addict and using a hand plane for this task isn't everyone's cup o' tea.

Good luck! Jason
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frankcello
Junior Member


Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 3
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:32 pm    Post subject: Jointing plates Reply with quote

Hello Jethro,
It is interesting reading this as I have been doing about 3 backs and 4 tops over the past few days, and have been facing this issue of getting a perfect joint.
I will share a few of my findings. First throw the jointer away. You will spend more time setting that thing up and then still you will not get a perfect joint.
I will stress you MUST have a PERFECT joint.
Secondly what kind of plane are you using? The sole must be Dead flat. I found using a low angle jack plane from Lee-Valley or the Lie-Nielsen plane works very fine. Also the shooting board is a good idea, Although not totally essential, I did it both ways, that is with the shooting board and free hand clamped in the vise. The only problem with clamping the 2 halves together in the vise is that your blade has to be perfect the whole width of the iron,as well as wide enough to cover the width of the 2 backs.
The other thing is once you have it close set that blade SO Fine, I mean taking a shaving thats about 1/2 of 1 thousandth or .0005, in other words very thin, this will only be accomplished by a VERY sharp iron.

So to recap

1 get rid of the jointer
2 make sure the sole of your plane is dead flat
3 use the shooting board to obtain a square edge
4 take a thin thin shaving
5 then run a very bright light behind that joint and you should see NO light

Good luck
Frank
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frankcello
Junior Member


Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 3
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:33 pm    Post subject: Jointing plates Reply with quote

Hello Jethro,
It is interesting reading this as I have been doing about 3 backs and 4 tops over the past few days, and have been facing this issue of getting a perfect joint.
I will share a few of my findings. First throw the jointer away. You will spend more time setting that thing up and then still you will not get a perfect joint.
I will stress you MUST have a PERFECT joint.
Secondly what kind of plane are you using? The sole must be Dead flat. I found using a low angle jack plane from Lee-Valley or the Lie-Nielsen plane works very fine. Also the shooting board is a good idea, Although not totally essential, I did it both ways, that is with the shooting board and free hand clamped in the vise. The only problem with clamping the 2 halves together in the vise is that your blade has to be perfect the whole width of the iron,as well as wide enough to cover the width of the 2 backs.
The other thing is once you have it close set that blade SO Fine, I mean taking a shaving thats about 1/2 of 1 thousandth or .0005, in other words very thin, this will only be accomplished by a VERY sharp iron.

So to recap

1 get rid of the jointer
2 make sure the sole of your plane is dead flat
3 use the shooting board to obtain a square edge
4 take a thin thin shaving
5 then run a very bright light behind that joint and you should see NO light

Good luck
Frank
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violinarius
Member


Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 171

PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scrap the scrap is not a bad idea!!

For those who are not fighting a loosing battle with a bad jointer, this web-page might be useful.

http://www.woodmagazine.com/wood/story.jsp?storyid=/templatedata/wood/story/data/375.xml
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jethro
Member


Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 178

PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 4:20 am    Post subject: central joint headaches ....... Reply with quote

Frankocello:
You might be just the man that can help me !
Have solved issues with my plane. Fly cut the sole in the milling machine
and stoned blade with new Norten waterstones 220-8000 + leather stropping. I can make a long shaving so thin I can read the newspaper
through it !!!!!!!!
OK. Top plate. Planes it down - plate in vice - super thin cuts and then
adjusted down high spots. Finaly no light through joint using a 3W LED
light and then a 150 W floodlight in dark room.

Heated wood to about 140 F with blow dryer. Added glue- medium thin
- slid joing till started feeling sticking sensation. Let dry overnite- no
clamps. Next day---- gaps in each end so big I could allmost slip a
business card into them Some areas in middle might be OK - but probably
30 to 40% of joint NOT OK !
I have done this 4 or 5 times with same or worse results !
It LOOKS like the joint is "floating" appart after I put it together.
I am NOT seeing this "mysterious" sucking together that Strobel
refers to ........

What am I doing wronge ???????????

I am now discouraged with this type of joint and am experimenting
with a "sawed" joint.

Where am I going bad on the clampless type joint you are using ???

Signed: frustrated ! (tim)
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