Violin Forum/Message Board

[HarmySandwhich]

Hi,
I've been playing guitar for about 6 years but I've always wanted to play Violin, specifically for Folk, Jazz and Country music. My influences on guitar are Merle Travis, Chet Atkins, Les Paul & Mary Ford, Django Reinhardt, Brad Paisley and the Dixie Chicks. You can see from these artists the sort of music I would ultimately like to play on Violin - melodic and tuneful fiddle.

Being a long time player of a stringed instrument, I understand the difference between entry level and intermediate models. I know most budget instruments are horrendous and will often discourage you from practicing which is why I have opted for an intermediate model. Another thing I have considered is the type of wood used. The wood used on a guitar is vastly important as far as intonation goes. Arguably, the lacquer and varnish is just as important. I assume this will be the same for any other stringed instrument? I know I wouldn't be happy with an entry level model?

Looking around, i've spotted some excellent buys from Elida* although the one which has really won my heart is from Singing Chicken** - A Stentor 1875 Elysia. It sounds perfect for my need: selected fine maple woods, full size, high gloss varnish with an ebony fingerboard.

The only drawback I can think of is purchasing a Violin from an Internet store - although this is about as cheap as you'll ever find from an 1875 Stentor 1875. I've done my research and I know that this specific model is suitable for intermediate students. Other prices I've found on the internet are in excess of £350. I am well aware of buying internet music products. There have been many times in which the guitars I have ordered have been horrendously set up, which leads me to my next question. I want a violin suitable for "fiddling" (as in the Folk sense). From my research I know there is a slight difference between a fiddle and a Violin - the bridge on a fiddle is considerable flatter. When I receive my violin, how will I go about setting it up? Shall I just give it to my local music store to have it set up - how much money will this cost for this slight alteration?

I am making it my priority to go down to my local music store to enquire more into purchasing violins. I have a buget of about £260 or $516USD or $513CAD - I live in London, UK. I do not want an entry level model violin, neither do I want a complete violin package. I'd rather get my Violin and Bow seperately. Since, I am a serious musician playing more than 6 different instruments, I have no intention of giving this up. An entry level model will quickly get old as soon as I progress and it is inevitable that I will get upset with the sound coming from such a budget model.

I am committed and I definitely know how demanding taking up a Violin can be. Although i'm almost 20 years old, my age isn't going to stop me from playing

Thank You for the advice.

* http://www.elidatrading.co.uk/exclusives.htm (The Elida Intermezzo)
** http://www.singingchicken.co.uk/item3519.htm

EDIT: Thanks Luscombe for letting me stay on.

[Shirley]

Wow, Hammy - you've really done your homework! All I have to say in response to your query is the same old litany, I'm afraid: Try some violins, or have someone play them for you, and listen for the sound you want. I think you will recognize it!

If you elect to buy an instrument through the internet, be sure that you can do so on an approval basis, so you can return it. Some stores ask only for your credit card number, and others for paymetn up front (refundable), or a down payment. The same with bows.

For folk music, you will probably not need as "good" an instrument as you would if you planned solo classical work, but you are right in that the instrument should sound as good as you can afford. (I bought a guitar from a neighorhood boy for $10 in my youth, and it was so hard to play that I never did persue that instrument!)

Yes, you should be able to find someone who could cut down your bridge for a reasonable amount - a new bridge usually costs a bundle. But you may also have to have a new instrument "set up" - this can cost a little or a lot. Not much help, am I?

I looked at both the sites you referenced, and they both seem interesting and respectable, if a bit ketchy (spelling?) - do you know that you can also rent a violin, possibly set up for the purpose you want, until you really come to terms with the sound you want?

I've been to Lonon several times, and it was the strangest thing - I always felt as though I had "come home" - strange, since my ancestry is German. Maybe because the light and smells are rather like the east coast of the US where I spent my childhhod? But I LOVE London and the UK!

And you know what else? 19 is a GOOD age to start to try fiddling - you could become a master! (True, the greats on the violin started at age 3 or 5, but that doesn't mean you can't be just GREAT at fiddling, especially with your musical background.) You are still young enough to learn to be able to wiggle your fingers really, really fast! (We ol'uns have a bit more trouble learning this .)

Oh - and certainly - choose your bow seperately, depending on how it behaves on your fiddle. This might take some experience, also, in determining just what works for you.

Let us know what you decide, and how it all turns out? And HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Shirley

[Mat Roop]

Harmy... my comments from a previous thread...
"as to buying a violin...
1- buy from a reputable shop to where you can return and who can service your needs... Shirley had good advice.
2- Play many many violins to find out what nature of violin you like and don't like . If you are not confident with your playing to do that, try to have a violinist friend go with you to play for you.... they will also let you know if it is set up properly for easy playing and balanced sound.
3-You can spend as much as you want... the prices range all over the map....set your price limit, compare the ones that are well set up, and get the best sounding one for that amount.
Good luck!... Mat"

keep in mind that if you buy on the net and the violin is not properly set up you can spend another $100 - $200 on strings, bridge and post.... that is why it is important to test out many violins before buying... and dealing with someone who can warranty the instrument and provide service if needed!
Good luck, & Happy New Year! Mat

[HarmySandwhich]

@ Shirley: Thanks for your take on my post. I've looked at warranties and refund policies. Elida are very friendly. They are a well known family violin dealers who will happily refund and warranty the status of all violins. Singing Chicken offer all manufacture warranties.

I've also found this website to be of clear interest*. It offers a really nice fiddle and i've e-mailed the dealer who said he would happily set up the Violin for fiddle use - cutting bridge free of charge. I have considered getting this outfit but I really want to choose my own Bow and in case, the Stentor Elysia will be a better fiddle due to it's high gloss and selected Maple woods, don't you agree? I also found another website selling the Elysia about £6 cheaper including delivery**. This site offers warranty with 7 days notification for refund which is reasonable enough.

* http://www.aranmore.co.uk/Deluxestudentviolin%20.htm
** http://www.djmmusic.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=1875A&eq=&Tp=

I've sourced the price of new bridges and they come around quite cheaply actually, which is quite strange. You had me thinking that it would cost well over £20/$40CAD. They only cost around £7 for a decent bridge. In terms of getting a lutheir to cut it, i'm still not quite sure about how much that would cost. Hopefully it won't be more than £25/$50CAD.

lol. Germany is exactly like the UK. If the languages weren't different, I would be able to tell the difference.

@ Mat: Thanks for your take on my post. All websites listed provide manufacture warranties and reasonable refund policies. I agree, it will be important for me to go out and test these instruments.

Thank you for both posts and Happy New Year.

[Shirley]

Aye, Harmy - getting a bridge properly fitted, there's the rub! (I too was surprised at the cheap prices of even the top-rated bridges.) To have a bridge's feet properly and well fitted to your violin, being sure it is the proper height (strings have to be at optimum height above the fingerboard, etc.) takes more than a hundred USbucks around here, I believe. So having the bridge cut down by the seller would be a deal, but only if you were satisfied with it.

You know what though? You can still fiddle with a traditionally curved violin bridge - people do it all the time. I'm not familiar enough with prize-winning fiddling, though, to know just what the additional advantages of a flat bridge would be.

You certainly have done a lot of checking out violins - I find this very exciting, actually - I love to follow someone else's quest! Those sites you referenced do seem to show decent violins for the price. Are you sure, though, that you cannot find a shop in which to try some violins at that price, to see if they would satisfy you? Well set up, they may very well.

And something else: If you were to purchase an "outfit," often the seller will include a different bow if you request it, and will probably send along several, in different price ranges, for you to try on spec. I see that one of the dealers offers a carbonfibre bow, which could also be a good deal. Carbon fibre bows come in all price ranges, and in all ranges up to the very good bows, offer good "value for money", comparatively. (I am right that that is a good English expression?)

The shinyness of a finish is no indication of quality, I'm afraid. Also, it is a bit of a preference how shiny one likes a finish. Since both dealers offer a refund if not satisfied, you are pretty safe ordering either, I would presume. Didn't the first company listed also offer free shipping? (Shipping doesn't cost very much, actually - it is the insurance and extras that add up.)

PLEASE come back and tell us how things are going, and if you made a purchase? I'm following this story with excited interest! (And, yes, LOL, if what you said about Germany and England is true - I can at least understand my reaction now!)

Shirely

PS Harmy, I don't want you to think I am uneducated regarding punctuation - I know the English do different things with their commas and quotation marks - it took me a while to figure this out! (Spelling, however, is a different matter - I'm horrid.)

[Shirley]

Harmy - One more thing: The Ocotber issue of Strad Magazine had a feature article on the sorry state of fiddling in England (unlike Scotland, Ireland, and other nations). Kind of interesting. Sorry I can't bring up a website. Maybe you should make it your purpose in life to resurrect fiddling in England?

[HarmySandwhich]

Hi Shirley . Thank You for all your quick replies - i'm afraid I can't be quicker, I have a lot of coursework looming that's killing me slowly...but really, thank you for the help. You've been most helpful in my decision to buy the right Violin for me.

In consideration of your reply, I understand how important it is to get a fully set up instrument. I've asked all the stores now to see if they custom set-up the violins or if they can flatten the bridge for me. I've only just e-mailed them so I won't get any replies any time sooner. I understand that the strings must be a certain action above the fretboard - back in the day when I started learning guitar I couldn't believe the beginner guitars who had impossible action with the strings so far above the fretboard it was unplayable beyond the 7th fret. I have reason to believe, though, that all Stentor Violins are set-up straight from the Stentor factory in Reigate (in the UK somewhere). It seems as though these thirdparty retailers stock up on these Stentors and don't really do anything more to them. I've emailed anyway - just to make sure. The thing that's worrying me is that there seems to be such a huge difference in price with these Elysia's. I mean - only on two websites have I found that the Stentor Violin (alone) costs about £236 ($472CAD approx) whereas the price is usually stated at around £350 ($700CAD approx). Could it be that they have been set up and that's the difference in the price? But as I said before, "all instruments are fully fitted in the Stentor workshop in the UK", which has led me to believe all of these Stentors are regardless of retailer. Could it also be that i've just found a really good deal?

You're quite right - I could fiddle with a traditional bridge but I know that it won't sound right. I mean, you can never really use an electric Stratocaster (a guitar) for Jazz, no matter how versatile a Stratocaster is because the pickups won't make the tone (technical jibberish). It just won't sound right. You'd need a Semi-Hollow guitar of some sort.

Anyway - back to the topic. I haven't actually asked that guy* whether he's be able to change the bow for me but if you say he will, he probably will be able to. You are right in the expression . Your punctuation isn't bad at all - hell, i'm not even British. I'm Chinese but I've been living in London for a long time. I've researched more on bows and i've figured that as a general rule of thumb, a bow has to be about a third of the price of the Violin - so no cheapies, I'm afraid, for me . The bow I plan on getting will almost definitely cost at least £60. The Violins I have seen around my area are terrible I feel. The ones i've seen cost no more than £150/$200CAD and I know I won't be happy with them. In fact, a lot of the shop owners look quite mad - they find my constant Violin inspection somewhat of an annoyance.

I thought that the shininess (or coasting/lacquer) played a major role on intonation? I thought that a well varnished instrument is vital for additional tone - at least that's how it is on any guitar and especially the type of wood it's made of. And yes - all these retailers have offered free shipping and all instruments are fully insured during transit plus reasonable refund/warranty policy.

I will definitely get back with pictures - don't worry. You & Mat have been a great help and it would be unacceptable not to let you in. And - me become a well known fiddler? lol. I may be a huuugely enthusiastic on musical instruments but i've opted for a law career as a solicitor .

Ah - also Shirley, check out these prices and the sound quality of these Violins!

http://www.beautifulbowsandviolins.com/list.php?cat=Instruments&cat2=Violins

^ You may consider getting one yourself!

* http://www.aranmore.co.uk/Deluxestudentviolin%20.htm

EDIT: Oh Shirley, here are some pictures of the actual Stentor Elysia~. I've searched the internet high and low for a real picture of the Violin rather than an illustration which is what you almost always get from retailer websites/Stentor's own website and on Google.

~ See below



It's sooo purdy. Now, all I need is to get hold of some kinda soundclip of it...

[Shirley]

Harmy - you are too kind! You have really dived into finding out stuff about violins, haven't you? Are you this thorough in all you do? Are you sure you are only 19? You've got a mature head on your shoulders!

But a LAWYER?? Aaaaaargh! I'm not sure you will be allowed on this website any longer. I"ll fight for you, though - I'm afraid I have the stigma of being married to a lawyer - or, as he says, since he is retired, a "recovering lawyer." (This last is one instance where in Brittain the period goes outside the quotation marks? Why can't you guys over there learn the Queen's English?) Did you come to England from China? As a tot? How interesting!

And you sure know a lot about guitars! The finish on guitars, I am sure, plays a large part in the tone of the instrument, and it does so in violins, too - it's just that shinyness is not considered a yardstick of quality. It can be shiny or not. Otherwise, someone would be tempted to thrown out that old Strad and get a nice new shiny manufactured violin. A well done varnish job, though, is important.

(Re: bridges - just so you realize that a flatter bridge makes playing on one string more difficult - but of course it can be done, and fiddlers often play more than one string at a time - "double stops.")

You seem to have learned an awful lot concerning bows. You are more than correct when you say that you can't stint on the quality of a bow - it is generally considered that the bow is at LEAST as important in sound production as the instrument. I remember when I first returned to playing the viola a few years ago (I had played it in High School, but with no dedication at all), my teacher asked me if my bow was expensive, and I said "yes," and was so embarrassed that at my level I had paid US$600 for a bow I was not worthy of. Oh, says my teacher - that is not expensive - then showed me her $10,000 bow and her $12,000 bow. She wasn't showing off, she just wanted me to realize that a bow is considered very important. (I since have upgraded.)

The differences in price for the same violin does indeed seem strange - raising a red flad of some sort, but indeed there are dealers who do give larger discounts than others, and if you are convinced of a dealer's integrity, and the price is lower, go for it! The same "brand" violin can sound different from others of the same brand, so don't let any violin shop salesperson make you feel overly persnickity in you inspections. This is an important decision you are making.

Another thing - I keep thinking up stuff - several on-line shops here in the US, and also many of the brick and mortar shops, offer "trade-ups," that is, they apply the full price of the first instrument as a trade-in towards a higher priced second one. Do the shops you have been contacting have such a service?

I do go on, but your post are so interesting! You can't image how much luck I wish you - if you don't become a famous fiddler then I'll be surprised - and I can say I "knew you" when!

Yes, please come back and let us in on the final decision - sounds as if you are already in love with the fiddle! And thanks for the pics! Shirley

[Shirley]

Hi, Harmy - just me again - I've been thinking, and I wish you could talk to a fiddler about this, but it is very possible that a fiddler can get away with a less expensive bow than can a classical violinist. The violinist uses many more types of bow strokes than a fiddler (I believe), and the ability to perform these strokes is what adds to the price. So, mainly, what kinds of strokes doyou need? Straigt bowing - some bouncing bow? If you find out that this is so, you can save yourself some £s. If you find out, would you let me know?

Shirley

[Shirley]

Harmy - are you familiar with a website for fiddlers:

http://www.fiddleforum.com

It is a favorite of many on the violin forums, and I bet you could get a lot of specific information there.

Cheers! Shirley

[HarmySandwhich]

Hi Shirley - good news! I'm on a coursework break now (where I feel like napping) so I won't be able to reply until a few hours time but check back today around 1/2am.



All I'll say is that you were quite right about the Bow and I do know for definite that the Violin is properly set up (at an amazing price for an Elysia too!) All will be revealed soon, after I nap. I'm also a member of Fiddle Forums already .

Nite!

[Shirley]

Harmy - I'm waiting with baited breath for it all to revealed!

(I figured with all your research you would have come across the Fiddle Forum - glad you found it!)

Also, I just read that Dave Swarbrick (know of him?) use a £240 bow - pretty cool, considering he could afford anything he wanted.

Hear from you later, when you are well rested! Shirley

[HarmySandwhich]

Hi Shirley . I think I have decided upon which violin to get and i've consistently been told that it is a good choice. I've decided to get the Stentor Elysia 1875 Violin for £286/$572CAD. There are many reasons for purchasing such an instrument. I can honestly say that the biggest factor in my choice is the constant good reviews of this instrument. I have been told that this is the Top of the Range Violin that Stentor offer along with the Arcadia. The Arcadia is a little more expensive but I was told by Liz, from Elida trading that the only difference is as you would put it, "how one likes his shininess". Other than that they are really the same instrument. Paying about £50 more just for the shine factor is, I believe, not really rational, especially where the aim is to purchase a great sounding and respected violin for the price. The Elysia comes at a retail price of about £400+, excluding the really good deals I've found. You may think there is a huge discrimination in price but as you said, some warehouses have the upper hand in providing cheaper prices for exactly the same instrument - because they can afford to price it at a lower rate. For example, the price of the Elysia on that website, above, is around £325 (no bow/case but set up), which might seem reasonable enough but as you saw from Singing Chicken and DJ music, the price of just the instrument is just £236. Just to get an idea of the discrimination in pricing, check this used Elysia for £500/$1000CAD! Other Elysia prices are £325 from Newcastle music and £415**!

You may think that the reason why there is a price difference is because some of them are set up. Well think again, they're all set up exactly the same way - straight from the factory in Reigate as I had predicted. All hand-checked and neatly packaged where the retailer, does in fact do nothing with them. They just keep it in its original form waiting to sell it. So, you'd imagine, a price of £236/$472CAD is a long way down from £415/$830CAD - infact, almost £200/$400CAD more expensive!! So the deal i'm getting is incredible!

In response to your reply:
LOL. You're married to a lawyer! What are the chances . I always get picked on by a lot of mates who reckon I should have stuffed the law degree and gone for a degree in music. My only response to that is - well...it's more realistic I guess. I mean, there's only 1 in a billion chances that I will become a success. Nowadays, people don't appreciate Classical/technical/fiddle music as they should. Consequently, I think it'll be very hard for me to make my mark - and besides, I'm half way through Law School so I can't really quit, lol.

I have decided that I should not be too concerned with the bridge. Afterall, I am a beginner Fiddler but that will soon change, I know. It is invitable I will get that bridge replaced and modified as I get better. Ah - I've read about doublestops. I was reading one of your recent, I think, replies on this forum concerning them and how a fellow Fiddler found it difficult in bow technique. I learnt about Double Stops when I was learning the difference between the Fiddle and the Violin - Fiddle has a flatter bridge to enable double stops being played easier etc...but yes, I will leave that for now until that time comes.

There are no Violin stores I have come across that sell Violins in my price range. The shops I have been to sell the typical Stentor II and I, which I was told by Fiddle Forums to stay completely away from. All other Violins are well over £1000/$2000CAD so I don't think I would have enough money to buy such a model. Being a Student comes with its limits, sigh...British Tuition fees to study at University for £3070/$6140 is too much to ask for, multiply that for 3 years standard degree course and you have a great big bill. That's not even half as bad as when I graduate to go to Law School, which costs £10,000/$20,000CAD for 1 year! So - money is still an issue with me, I'm quite lucky I have the money in my piggy bank

Now the bow question. The general consensus on Fiddler Forum seems to be that you don't need as good as bow as you would a classical one. You were right in that this is because a Fiddler doesn't use all the different bow techniques as a Classicist does. Therefore, I can make do with a cheaper, but not too cheap, bow. In fact, one of the guys on the forum told me he prefers his $50 bow to his more expensive 3-figured priced bow. Although that same guy did remark upon the fact that any Violinist needs a decent bow regardless of being either a Fiddler or a Classicist. I am still searching for my bow. I should really wait for my Violin to come I feel so I can test it out.

I have never asked for any such trade-ins, although I might just consider it after I get my Elysia. Just think of it Shirley - if my Violin is priced at a retail of around £400/$800CAD, I can potentially sell it for the same price making a £200/$400CAD profit which means I could then buy an even better violin! Time will tell...

I have no clue as to who Dave Swarbrick is, but it's nice to know that piece of trivia you put forward. This is evidence that you don't need a really expensive bow. Here's Stephane Grappeli for your consideration playing with Django Reinhardt - one of my guitar idols. You'll love Stephane - listen to his Violin solo half way through. This video is actually one I uploaded:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnkdUPsAles

Thank You for all your help but i'm not done yet!

** I can't remember the site, I'll put it up later.

EDIT: I came from Hong Kong and moved to London as a tot, yes

[Shirley]

Harmy - what an enthusiastic and informative reflection on the joys and decisions involved in such a search as yours - this is marvelous - you should write an article on how to select an instrument - I know several magazines (or other publications) would accept it. Wow.

Needless to say I believe you made the best decision, given the information you were able to accumulate. Good job, and I sure hope it works out for you!

May I make a suggestion that you have probably come up with yourself already,and that is to make a recording of your fiddle playing as soon as you have one tune that you can get through - and then record yourself periodically after that. This will come in handy when you you feel you are making NO progress whatsoever learning to fiddle. (There is a school of thought that says only record yourself playing if you are prepared to go out in the back yard and shoot yurself, or throw yourself into a river, but this is mostly facetious, reflecting how terrible it is to listen to yourself on a recording - every little mistake and error in dynamics seems magnified - as you probably know. It's just that the violin can take such a long time to get even middling-good on. )

I sure would like you to make a promise to a woman you have never even met, that you will not give up before a year, and after that only after great soul searching. It is SO easy to give up on the violin!

You know, I have never heard of either the guitarist or the violinist in the videos, but I can see why they are famous - I guess they are both deceased now? I listened to most of the recordings of those fellows that were available there on Youtube. Thanks so much for that! I'm just learning stuff all the time!

Good luck with your studies - you seem to have a very heavy schedule, and an unlimited supply of energy. PLEASE return when you receive your violin, and let us know how it goes - and if you think you made a good decision; I'm sure you did. Best of luck with the fiddling, too!

Shirley

[HarmySandwhich]

Shiiiiiiirley!

I am so close to purchasing the Violin but I've stumbled across something else





From the US at about $500/£250. It's a Strad copy too!

http://www.giardinelli.com/product/Silver-Creek-Model-4-Violin-44-Outfit?sku=470311

EDIT: Wow, shortest post ever...