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Apprentice? ever..?
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LuthierSomeday
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Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 9
Location: Massachusetts

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:31 pm    Post subject: Apprentice? ever..? Reply with quote

Hello All,

Can anyone tell me about apprenticeship opportunities in Luthery? I just completed my Bachelors in Ethnomusicology, but I truly want to begin making instruments. Unfortunately it seems like my only option is to go BACK to school. I've looked at the North Bennet Street School, but I just can't afford it. I've got enough debt from my B.A. Any suggestions? Ideas? Anyone need someone to sweep the floors and learn something on the side?

-Matt
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Chris E.
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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont think you need to go as far as going back to school to learn how to make a violin. I'm a first time builder just starting off myself, and I have no plans on going to a traditional school. I've spent about the last 4 mo's lurking on these violin makers forum's reading old post's, doing research, buying books, and have come to find that there's more than enough information out there to get you well on your way. There are some really brilliant people posting here as well as on maestronet that appear plenty capable of answering any ? a "teacher" could, and whats better, they're willing to share this knowledge for free. Try to strike up a relationship with a local repair shop and learn something on the side as you said before, and just keep working away at it. Dont be in to big a hurry to start cutting wood either. Take the time to really understand the process and accumalte the proper tools. As I said before, Im already 4 mo's of researching and reading into my endeavour, and i still see myself atleast a month or 2 away if not more from even starting the mold. Slow and methodical is the only road to success with an undertaking such as this.
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JWH
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Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 72

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I may comment, Chris is right about the wealth of information out there. I started out in 2004, reading the forums, buying the Courtnall book and some Strobel material and feel like I have been through a school. The Johnson Courtnall book, itself, is a text on the Newark School of violin making. I've learned a lot from it.
It is true that there are higher levels of mastery that the skills of the average maker may never attain. I don't for, example, believe that I can attain a level that someone like David Gusset is at no matter how long I survive. I know David since he resides here in our community of Eugene, Oregon. He is one individual who takes perfection to the enth degree. It's no wonder that he has gold out of competition in the events of the past.
By the way, an article in our newspaper last Sunday appeared about David's work. I'll post it.

http://www.registerguard.com/csp/cms/sites/dt.cms.support.viewStory.cls?cid=52323&sid=4&fid=1
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JWH
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Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 72

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I directly linked to the article twice from the post and it appeared. Now, a log-in page appears. My luck. The article is in the issue of Sunday the 20th.
The way I originally accessed it was to go to the Register Guard home page and type "David Gusset" in the search bar.
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Andres Sender
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Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 275
Location: N. CA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want to make instruments as a hobby, there is indeed a ton of information available.

If you want to make instruments for a living over a lifetime, you need high-level skills. Most successful makers worked in high-end shops doing repair and setup and had lots of exposure to great instruments. The path to such work is generally through schools, and possibly through less well known shops which still do high-quality work.

I get the impression that one can’t really work one’s way up the industry from a mom-and-pop shop to, say, a place in NY, so most people start with school, even though the schooling doesn’t necessarily prepare you for the real world.
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Dave Chandler
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Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 691
Location: Mt Mitchell in North Carolina

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:33 pm    Post subject: Schools Reply with quote

As a 58 year old novice (I'm on violin #5) I think if you have a lifetime ahead you can achieve any level of competence, in anything you want. However...The school of trial and error is in its own way, slow and expensive. I have to keep my own expectations in check, and fortunately I don't plan to try and make a living at it, but just to live it. I can afford to take 6 months to complete a violin, and if I recover my materials costs I'm happy. I would think though, that if I were in my 20s or 30s, the quickest way to reach a level of competence that would provide a living, would be to find a way to do the school, if any way possible. If its a lifetime pursuit you're thinking of, you need to invest something into it, to get anything significant out of it. For me, I'll be happy to make violins for friends and neighbors, maybe donate some to local schools.
_________________
Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill

"I took the road less travelled, and now I don't know where I am." Marco Polo
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jessupe goldastini
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Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 169
Location: sana' rafaela'

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

arg....harsh realitys...

first sounds like your young...thats good...times on your side.......

well first i would say things changed alot in the last 30 years, with all these high qaulity chinnese instruments coming out, very hard to compete financially with those makers.this has put a damper on things related to how one used to aquire the skills to make instruments, frankly the qeusion you have to ask is....are there even any local makers around?....and if there are, do they want to help me go into competion against them? repair work is the predominent vehicle for "standard" income, new instrument makers making good money are becoming more rare, that being said if you can make a name for yourself, you can end up with plenty of new comissioned instruments...

so when i hear someone say....ya i want to make violins....i'm hearing i think i want to go buy a gsxr 1000 and go do wheelies, even though i haven't riden a motorcycle before.....

THIS STUFF IS DANGEROUS......

ANYONE can make a violin or violin like instrument...the qeustion is, what is your aptitude twords working with wood/powertools/razor sharpe hand tools?.....

this is where instruction may be required....

regarding myself, i had worked with wood{i'm a contractor/familit biz} and played music for 25 years prior to making an instrument....so to me it came quite naturally....all i needed to do was get the blueprints{which in short time i tossed, ha}, the skill required to operate the tools correctly and safely was already there.

you may want to get a job as an entry level at a cabinet/furniture/wood flooring/finish carpentry/LUTHIER/wood skill job...this will allow for you to make money AND learn the needed basics of operating saws/hand tools as well as learn wood science related to structure and finishing of wood, in general...

this will allow for a transition into the hobby world of instrument making.

elsewise if you want to make a career out of it, best to follow andres's advice and go to school. this will have the specific enviroment you are looking for..

just would hate to see a guy go get some books and tools and cut his finger off shortly after, this stuff is not a mellow hobbie, its actualy quite physically grueling, requires patience, tenacity, stick to it tiveness'....

be careful...always wear saftey gear.....eyes,ears,dust
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LuthierSomeday
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Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 9
Location: Massachusetts

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

harsh realities...

well I only ride a 650cc, but at least I ride... haha (no wheelies though)

I hear what your saying. Yes I'm young, but I've also been woodworking since I was like 8 years old. I am familiar with hand tools and powertools and though the world of instrument making is new to me, I'm not niave in terms of craftsmanship/safety/attention to detail etc. I've had construction/finish carpentry jobs. I've carved soapstone, done stained-glass, done automotive work. Things like that come easy to me. The logic of how things should fit together. The idea of creating something out of nothing.

So this isn't an ill-conceive pipe-dream. Sorry jessupe, but it's hard not to take some offense here.

thanks for the concern and the rant.

I'm also not so concerned with making money as I am learning the craft at this point.

The knowledge I lack right now ( I think) is the more specialized skills. Fingerplanes, purfling, varnishing. Anyone can use a bandsaw, but how many people can carve two perfect f holes or bend symetrical ribs? I want to know more about tonewoods. Aging/curing, how cuts are made. grain patterns. I'm reading alot. Here and in books. Mainly "As it was as it is". I've done a good amount of physics reading and the acoustical foundations of music.

...there are some local shops around. But as you said there is some extreme competition. And the high-end shop only employs graduates of schools like North Bennet. So I'll keep searching. Maybe find someone to learn from this summer.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm beyond the " cabinet/furniture/wood flooring/finish carpentry/" job.

thanks so much for everyone's input.

all the best.

M


[/quote]
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jessupe goldastini
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Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 169
Location: sana' rafaela'

PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well take it how you will, if you've been working with wood since you were 8 you are 1 out of 1,000,000 persons....

most people do not have wood working skill, let alone repetitve skill....so my cautions were aimed at the "average person" who does not have wood working skills at all, and that may "dream" of making violins....

your initial post gave no "hint" as to your level of skill...so to era on the side of caution i give cautious advice...

so now that we are past the fact that you will most likely not poke your eye out we can proceed further....

books and video instruction are very helpful...all those mentioned

to see someone do it in the proper order{there is variaton on that}is very helpful...

so...the harsh realities was related to just getting out of school and needing to spend money on more school....if you want to be a pro....if not, hell man just order some wood and start doing it....go to google and let the "key words" fly.....tonewood....violin molds....instruction video...etc....you get the idea....

if you have woodworking skill, peice of cake....

google DAVID LANGSATHER VIOLINS.......

he's got a link off this board I think....he's got a great web site with lots of easy to accsess information...he does it french however....a slightly different approach....

a good bosch jig saw $150.00 will be a good "poor mans" band/scroll saw....you can cut out the plates and the neck block with this saw...thats really the only power tool you need, the rest you can do with hand tools.

change your name from...."luthiersomeday"....to "LUTHIERNOW"

I HOWEVER PERFER LEX......LEX LUTHER......MUHAAAAAAAA

and once you start, if you get into specific problems, you can come here and get specific advice from guys who actually know what there talking about.:}

remeber saftey first
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Chris E.
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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For what it's worth jessupe, I thought you made a very valid point. If not for this person, for other perspective violin makers who may come back to these threads seeking knowledge and inspiration as I have.

Schools are a wonderfull thing and much can be learned from them, but they can only teach method. True craftsmanship is a gift and thechnique can only be learned with time. With the high price of tuition one without unlimited resources must take this into consideration. It would be a shame to spend all that money only to find out you didnt have what it takes, or @ best were extremely under- prepared for it. Why not feel it out and get a taste for it before you go for broke. Espicialy if you already have a perfectly fine career laid infront of you. People turn hobbies into dream jobs all the time, there's no need to rush it

As a machinist whose served an apprenticeship and spent over 10 yr's in the tool and die industry to date, there is one thing I can say I've seen over and over again. That is truly smart, hardworking people, who despite there best intentions and hardest efforts will just never be able to wrap there mind around the trade. It certainly weighs heavy on my mind as I try to shift gears and incorpoarate my skill set into something new.
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Chet Bishop
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Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 678
Location: Forest Grove, Oregon

PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Someday;

Go for it. Get the Henry Strobel book Violinmaking, Step by Step, as it is simple, clear, and, yes, step-by step. It includes a workable plan, and all the needed measurements. Once you go through that experience, if you are not hooked on violinmaking, then you will know you don't want to do it professionally...and if you do, then you will have had time to look around at various avenues of training.

There are plenty who will disagree on the book-- that's fine. I stated why I suggest that book, and I will stand by it. I have the others as well, and they are great, but for a first violin, you would go a long way to beat that one.

One of the things Henry says is that the best way to learn is to get a job in a violin repair shop. That may be so, but it is not a viable option for most of us. Get some old fiddles in need of repairs from e-bay, garage sales, etc....don't pay more than ten bucks or so if you can help it...then take them apart, put them together, repair, restore, practice, practice, practice. It costs very little, and once in a while you will have the joy of having resurrected a really nice old fiddle.

I kind of went overboard when I began, and bought 70 of them. Fortunately, my wife is patient. Most of them are gone now, sold, and being played by happy people. I didn't make any money on them, but it was very cheap tuition. I bought tools as I needed them, rather than all in one swat. Made a lot of my own tools, too...

There is an excellent workshop run by Michael Darnton (he's on this list, but you can google him, too)-- it is quite affordable, and taught in a no-nonsense way, to people with or without previous experience. If the list is still open for 2008, I would highly recommend it, but then you may want to get moving and get some things ready. Incidentally, he recommends the Johnson and Courtnall book The art of Violin Making, and the Milanollo Strad poster...I agree, but it is a more daunting task, and I still think the Strobel book is better for a first go.

Either way, get going...don't let anyone discourage you. You CAN build a violin, and you will find it incredibly satisfying, and (caution!) addictive. Smile

You can check out the schools later.
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Becky
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Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 83

PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A luthier I know recommended the University of New Hampshire's Violin Craftsmanship Institute http://www.learn.unh.edu/violin/ They offer different workshops throughout the summer and you can choose which week(s) you want to go based on what skill level you're at and what you want to focus on learning. I haven't been able to go yet so I don't know much else about it (does anyone on this forum know more about it?) Right now I'm learning by reading this forum, many of the books others have already mentioned, and talking with (and some hands-on work) with some local luthiers. I don't know if the N.H. workshop is what you're looking for, but I thought I'd at least suggest it as it could be cheaper than actually going back to school.
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jessupe goldastini
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Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 169
Location: sana' rafaela'

PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well i'm not sure about any of that.....but i do envy your "senior member" staus with a mere 33 post's......ha..... =O
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Becky
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Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 83

PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the senior member status was carried over from the old forum...obviously the number of posts from the old forum didn't get carried over with the status
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jethro
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Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 178

PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:31 am    Post subject: Don't give up ! Reply with quote

LuthierNOW :

Take heart ! Keep in mind that your new craft might be considered by
many to be one of the most difficult and little understood undertakings
that is (barely) alive today. The skills needed seem to draw from several
unrelated fields, so that makes the learning curve steep for a while. When
I started I would study 12 hours and work 1. That was about 2-1/2 years
ago-- now I am just getting where I can (mostly) just work and not
constantly have to keep re-reading the instruction, dimentions, order of
operations ect. Now I am working on like the seccond plateau- trying
to find ways to work faster- to achieve a desired esthetic shape that is
pleasing to the eye in the 1700's sence , how to get a finnish that is
strikeing to the eye - those kinds of things.
I had never really worked with wood much before- but I have been
building all kinds of things since I was 10 and grew up in a machine shop.
I think working with my hands did help a lot.
I suspect there are many scattered skills that are not used anywhere
except instrument making so some things even fine wood workers don't
know about because they have no need to know. All of those little things
are to be discovered in time. Many of which I have yet to discover.
One thing I particulary like is when it is done and you are breaking it in
playing it.... it had a personality and a voice and allmost a soul...
like you have given birth to a new life form !

So ..... hang in there !

I looked into going to school to repair aircraft. It is a very enjoyable
job I had done for about 4 years allready. But they want 32,000$ for the
school. And the starting pay may be only 12$ per hour here in Florida.
That doesn't really make ecconomic sence !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Perhaps the violin schools are in the same boat ! (?)

Tim
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