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What are you using as a ground??

 
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Barry Dudley
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Joined: 01 Jan 2008
Posts: 64
Location: Monroe, GA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:48 am    Post subject: What are you using as a ground?? Reply with quote

I was wondering if there is any consensus of opinion on a good ground? I am not asking about the most secret esoteric ground that Stad and del Gesu used in the midnight hour and poisoned the person that may have discovered the secret, but something that is practical and produces good results?

When I say a "good" ground I mean one that produces a result that warrants what ever trouble may be involved in the preparation and application.

I have been using de-wax blond shellac that I mix fresh and have had good results. I have also used Elemi resin dissolved in alcohol but I couldn't really tell any difference. Elemi does smell wonderful! Both of these grounds are very easy to produces and apply.

I don't mind going to the trouble of making the ground if the results are superior. But I also don't want to have to go back to college and take a course in "organic chemistry" to be able to make the stuff just for the sake of making something that must be good because it is so complicated.
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MANFIO
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Joined: 11 Apr 2007
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Location: Sao Paulo

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been using the following:

4% sodium nitrite, two coats followe by exposition to UV

strong tea - 3 or 4 coats

my oil varnish (2 parts oil, 1 part colophony, 1 part mastic) diluted in turpentine, thin, 2 coats;

"acqua di cola", that is, weak glue size, with some alum;

my oil varnish in a paste with pomice rubbed in the wood (no pomice residue left) with a thick linen rag, followed immediatly by some of my oil varnish applied with my fingers.

I follow with coloured varnish.

IMG]http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1188/1437770048_6bcfe0ced9.jpg[/IMG]









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jessupe goldastini
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Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 169
Location: sana' rafaela'

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

manfio, i am consistantly impressed with your wood selection and ability to alighn the flames when joining the backs...

truly amazing stuff....
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MANFIO
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Location: Sao Paulo

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you!
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JWH
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Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 72

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manfio, you are amazing with your varnish. I've been trying to copy your efforts, and thanks once again for sharing this information.

I have to ask you. In the past you have included fuming as part of the process, but not in this thread. Did you fume the wood on the viola pictured here?

What I've found is that the 4% solution of sodium nitrite with good UV darkens wood quite dramatically, but I am wondering if it truly accents the dark rays enough by itself. I haven't fumed yet, but if I can get closer to what you are showing, I'd be really excited. Also, the yellow tint of background shows amazingly well on your photos.

One thing I think I am doing wrong is that I am leaving a very very thin film of pumice paste on the wood. You mention wiping it clear except for what gets embedded in the wood, right? So, I may be losing more transparency than I think.

Other than the pumice application and fuming, I am working with identical materials as you (different woods, perhaps), but granted my mixtures may be somewhat different. Cheers, Manfio!!!
John

Here some photos of where I am at in all this:

http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=112op9.jpg
http://img245.imageshack.us/my.php?image=116ch7.jpg
http://img147.imageshack.us/my.php?image=111cz2.jpg
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MANFIO
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Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 458
Location: Sao Paulo

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jonh! Nice varnish, you are a good pupi!!! I'll send you the bill for the tuition!!!

If I find the wood is sufficiently dark I skip the amonia fuming.

If may use a less concentrated sodium nitrite if your wood is too dark, perhaps 2 or 3%, you can dark the wood more slowly to control the process.

Yes, don't leave any pumice over the wood, wipe it with a rag soaked with some kerosene. After that I apply some of my oil varnish with my fingers in a thin coat. Sometimes I use some CINQUASIA GOLD BROWN (from KREMER) in the pumice paste and in this varnish I apply with my fingers to get some golden yellow in the ground.

Ciao!
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JWH
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I'll send you the bill for the tuition!!! "

Don't worry about it the check's already in the mail. Smile
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MANFIO
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Euros please, the dollar is too weak!!!

Have you made the oil/colophony/mastic varnish?
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JWH
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"In Euros please, the dollar is too weak!!! "

About a month ago, I wanted to order some wood purfling from Karin Rost in Germany. The bill was $30.00 US for the material. The shipping charge would have been 50 EU or about $75.00 US. Can you believe that? I declined.

Last week I ordered a LOT of 10 AAA top grade fingerboards from Bengal, India. The fingerboards were $3.00 US a piece....$30.00. Shipping for 10 boards.....$45.00 US. I figured, heck, they're still worth more than $7.50 a piece total charge, but you have to love those SHIPPING COSTS abroad!


"Have you made the oil/colophony/mastic varnish?"

I did last year and it turned out great. I didn't cook it real dark, but that was in my pumice paste. Thanks

Have to ask, is the dry CINQUASIA pigment you use #23582 from Kremer?
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Jim Williams
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Joined: 03 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi JWH, I just noticed those fingerboards from India too. Have they turned up yet and if so what are they like?

Thanks, Jim
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MANFIO
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi John! Good that the varnish worked for you!

Yes, it's a dry pigment, 23582 Cinquasia Brown Gold PO 49, you don't need to grind it, just dissolve it in Kerosene and add to the varnish you made, but don't overdo it otherwixe it can get orange, try in samples first.
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JWH
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jim:

No, it will be awhile before they arrive, but I'll certainly post about their quality when I get them. It's a business tied into E-bay with enough positive feedbacks that I think I'll be O.K.
They are suppose to be straight-grained, black (I take that to be no streaking), well seasoned, sorted for best quality. We'll see.

Here's the link:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSAA:US:11&Item=270206946267
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JWH
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A follow up on those fingerboards. It shows Item Ended on E-bay link, but according to the feedbacks, this seller offers these lot quantities at different times. I mentioned Bombay, make that Kolkata, WB 700038 India.
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Jim Williams
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Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi JHW, thanks for the info. I was aware of the ebay listing and sort of had my cursor hovering over the 'buy it now' button when I saw your post. As you say, the feedback from previous buyers is very positive so I've ordered ten before he sells out.

Even with the high shipping costs they'll work out at around £4.00 GBP which is a third of what I'd pay for good quality fingerboards here.

Heaven only knows what havoc we're wreaking on the Ebony trees in that area though...
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JWH
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Heaven only knows what havoc we're wreaking on the Ebony trees in that area though..."

So true, Jim.......The African supply I believe is about played out for quality material and who knows how much dyeable wood in India gets thrown out in the selection process. I know the push is for people to buy lower quality and dye their own woods and I have done that. I hate to think I am taking part in an ivory trade of sorts.
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