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Questions about tending to a 115 year old violin

 
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spystyle
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Joined: 08 Feb 2008
Posts: 49
Location: Maine, USA

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:46 pm    Post subject: Questions about tending to a 115 year old violin Reply with quote

Hello from Maine,

My 9 year old daughter Chloe has taken up the violin in school, in an effort to get her to practice more I've decided to take it up as well. So I ordered a violin.

I've been doing intense research for a few days trying to get an understanding of all things violin. So I have a little idea on the nature of things.

I ordered a vintage American made violin, not dated but from my research I think it was made around 1893. It's marked "American era" "made in USA".

Here are auction pics of it:













It was only about $100 US shipped to me, that seems OK.

Since I don't know much about violins I was hoping you guys could give me a clue - for example "always oil an old violin so it doesn't crack" ect.

and "you can polish it with ____" things like that.

I know I shouldn't put it in a humid or hot place. Other than that I am not familiar with the care and maintenance of an "antique" violin.

Also, if any of you have heard of "American era" I would like to know, I am interested in the history of this violin.

Thank you,
Craig


Last edited by spystyle on Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jason Cooke
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Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 9
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 2:03 pm    Post subject: Caring for antique violin Reply with quote

Craig -

I have never heard of anyone "oiling" a violin to keep it from cracking. In fact, applying anything oily to the instrument may compromise the varnish, pegs, fingerboard and strings, and certainly will increase the likelihood of tragedy when the instrument slips from your hands and crashes to the floor.

The only "oiling" that makes sense involves no lubricant in the literal sense. Keeping a violin "well-oiled" is a matter of playing it regularly. As for polishing, I wouldn't use anything other than something like Hill varnish cleaner made by Hindersine in London and available from most string instrument shops.

If you have not done so, I would take the instrument to a trusted luthier (no conflict of interest here since I am just a sometime player and student maker) to assess the set-up (assuming it is already strung) and to examine the instrument for seams that may have become unglued in transport or from exposure to changes in temperature/humidity.

Just as a matter of continuing what easily can become a journey of lifelong learning about things violin, you could do much worse than to start with a guide to string instrument care printed at a modest price by Strings Magazine.

Good for you for taking this up with your daughter -- an experience that can yield present satisfactions and precious memories -- and good luck. Jason
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spystyle
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Joined: 08 Feb 2008
Posts: 49
Location: Maine, USA

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the reply Jason Smile
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mapleleaf_gal
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Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 73
Location: tucson, az

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

just keep in mind: when buying an older instrument, you may need to have some work done on it. depending upon what that work is, it could be pretty pricey. if you have not seen this violin in person, then there could be all kinds of problems hidden that you can not see in a picture. if you are willing to make that investment, then go for it. otherwise, i'd suggest visiting a local shop and trying some "newer" instruments (or old instruments) that are already in playing condition. hardly ever can you buy a violin from an auction and have it ready to play. you could end up saving some money by spending more money in the beginning.

and no need to worry on "oiling a violin" a shop can show you all the necessary things that you need to do.
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spystyle
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Joined: 08 Feb 2008
Posts: 49
Location: Maine, USA

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to go to a trusted music store, I would like to go to a trusted luthier...

The problem is - I am in Lewiston Maine.

The only music store near me is ridiculously overpriced.

One example, my daughter's violin bow needed replaced, so I sourced the exact brand on the internet for $16 for a single bow (a music store would no doubt get them in bulk for much less) so I called our local music shop - "Carol's music", and they had the exact same brand bow. The price? $55 plus tax.

Before that I had brought my daughter and her violin in to "Carol's" to have a single string replaced. He replace the single string, the price? $30. Of course he did tune the violin for about 4 mins without me asking him to, but really, $30 ?

Now I see I could have bought her some good name brand strings for $30 off the internet, an entire set.

The local computer shop is the same, I am a computer technician of over 10 years and occasionally I'll need a part in a hurry - meaning I would like to source it locally. Last time I made the mistake of calling the local computer shop : I needed a part and sourced it on the internet for $7 shipped right to my door, so I figured I could get it for $20 locally understanding that they need to make a profit, so I called, they had it for $60.

Think about it - $7 or $60 for the exact same part!

So I do not have a local music shop I trust. I do not know of a local luthier. I am on my own unless my daughter's violin teacher would be willing to talk to me, but he is a school teacher - not a private teacher that the parents get to meet and talk to at length. I've only seen him on stage during their performance*.

But I am handy, I am a computer tech, I used to work in construction, and I also build arcade machines** (which is cabinetry). I think I could fix a violin, learn to maintain and adjust it, ect.

I will scour the internet for a luthier near me, maybe there is one. Otherwise I suppose I will have to "hit the books".

Cheers,
Craig

*
Here is a pic of my daughter Chloe on stage before their performance, she is the redhead in the middle not pointing. The lighting is tough on digital cameras!


**
If you are curious about the arcade machines, here are some I've built:
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mapleleaf_gal
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Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 73
Location: tucson, az

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, you can always buy from this place:

http://www.swstrings.com/Store/Shopping.jsp


i have ordered from this company for years. they are easy to deal with. you can get a few instruments on approval and try them out. i just highly recommend getting something that is in playing condition and ready to play. especally since you say that your local shop is overpriced. they'll be overpriced with repairs, too. and from a players point of view, nothing is more frustrating than playing on a violin that is not properly set up. it will frustrate you to no end and can eventually lead you to stop learning the instrument.

there are many violin outfits that are great for a beginner that are only a few hundered dollars.

good luck.
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spystyle
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Joined: 08 Feb 2008
Posts: 49
Location: Maine, USA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply, I will check that site out Smile

When you say "set up a violin" I am curious exactly what that involves. I'm assuming it means checking the height of the bridge and shaping it if necessary. Tuning the strings by tightening them, maybe doping the pegs. Inspecting and repairing any open seams and cracks. Checking height of the nut. Checking alignment, radius, and flatness of the fingerboard... is there anything else?

Couldn't a regular Joe with the right instructions and tools perform a "set up" ?

Cheers,
Craig
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Jack H.
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Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 346
Location: Israel

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

a regular bloke with talented hands and the right tools can do a lot, including check the instrument for open seams, string height, fb and bridge curve and fit of bridge, even string spacing at the nut and bridge, peg fitment and all else.
Stick around and ask questions as you need, from the pictures it seems like it is ready to play. are you going to be taking lessons or trying to figure it out on your own?
I would taking a few beginner lessons, it will be invaluable to you and intrinsic to the progress you make.
There are a lot of different issues when going to a shop to get a sting or a new sound card or IDE cable. I am sure you are aware that when you buy an (in my opinion) exceedingly expensive string at a local violin shop you are getting all kinds of services with that, if there is a problem with the string it is up to them to help you, things like that.
I run my shop on a different scale, i do not try to nickle and dime the customer to death until they are sick of comming in, I do not charg minimum $15 or higher labor fees for anything that I do to the instrument.
I provide a friendly environmnet and a helpful attitude coupled with knowlegable service. It keeps them coming back when it is time for the bigger repairs or purchases. could have been a $10 string ( which type of string is the new one and where did the older one break?) with a $20 service charge. I sell and change a set of Dominanats for a bit more than that...
That kind of pricingjust puts the customer off. I hope that he at least spun the violin through his field of vision ( gave it the once over) to see if there were any problems that would interfere with fahrvergnügen.
Anyway, please feel free to ask about any future issues that may arrise.

Keep in a area that is not in direct sun, not near a heat source and not humid, not overly dry either.
Wash hands before touching instrument and bow.
wipe instrument with a CLEAN flanel rag when you have finished playing, especially the area between the bridge and the fingerboard, where all the rosin from the bow falls, . Strings too.
If you are not playing the violin it should be in the case, always. This is how accidents happen! I have seen em all, well, almost. Do not answer the door with the instrument and/or bow in your hands. don't answer the phone, e.t.c.
when tuning the violin ( do you have a pitch pipe or piano or synthesizer at the house?), even if the pitch is too low, first lower the tension with the peg then bring it slowly up to pitch.
afer laying or tuning, look at the front and back of the bridge feet and ensure thay are in contact with the table of the violin. many times when tuning a violin the strings will pull the bridge forward raising it off of the table at the back. this needs to be straightened.
loosten the hairs of the bow to the relaxed position when you have finished playing.
um... anyone else think about something that my kids have distracted me from?
anyway Craig, enjoy the new hobby and I do wish you have fun with Chloe! Cute kid!

Jack Havivi
Havivi Violins
Israel
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spystyle
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Joined: 08 Feb 2008
Posts: 49
Location: Maine, USA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jack!

I just love Israel, what a history. It's people are so kind and disciplined with a true understanding of freedom and it's cost, every one a soldier. I just recently bought an Israeli "EL-Op EYA1" for my M16A1 - but that is a topic for a different forum.

As for violins - Thank you for the tips.

To answer your questions:

Jack H. wrote:
...could have been a $10 string (which type of string is the new one and where did the older one break?) with a $20 service charge.


It was a "Red Label" string. The whole set is worth $12, so one string must be worth $4 at most. As for the "service charge" - I did not ask him to install the string or tune the violin, he just did it and charged me. Before he told me the fee I actually thought he was just being kind.

Little does he know I will never return to his store.

Jack H. wrote:
...do you have a pitch pipe or piano or synthesizer at the house?


We have a device to help tune it Smile

Jack H. wrote:
...anyway Craig, enjoy the new hobby and I do wish you have fun with Chloe! Cute kid!


I sure will! You have fun too, OK?

Cheers,
Craig
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mapleleaf_gal
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Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 73
Location: tucson, az

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spystyle wrote:
Thanks for the reply, I will check that site out Smile

When you say "set up a violin" I am curious exactly what that involves. I'm assuming it means checking the height of the bridge and shaping it if necessary. Tuning the strings by tightening them, maybe doping the pegs. Inspecting and repairing any open seams and cracks. Checking height of the nut. Checking alignment, radius, and flatness of the fingerboard... is there anything else?

Couldn't a regular Joe with the right instructions and tools perform a "set up" ?

Cheers,
Craig


proper soundpost, proper fitting bridge/shape/height/string spacing, correct fingerboard scoop and radius, correct shape/grooves in the nut, correct fitting pegs...which can take a lot more work than just peg dope. shaping and reaming may be required, correct length of tailpiece, any cracks, open seams. the list can go on and on. any regular joe can do this if they have all the correct tools to do so. but usually the average joe does not own templates, planes, shapers, reamers, calipers, files, hide glue, glue pot...the list just goes on and on. and proper set up is not easy. people take years to master the perfect set up. it is sometimes what can make or break an instrument as far as playablitiy. i have been making for 10 yrs and am still honing my skills with set up. so, i guess it is all relative. an average joe can do it, but will it be done well?
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Jack H.
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Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 346
Location: Israel

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spystyle wrote:
Hi Jack!

I just love Israel, what a history. It's people are so kind and disciplined with a true understanding of freedom and it's cost, every one a soldier. I just recently bought an Israeli "EL-Op EYA1" for my M16A1 - but that is a topic for a different forum.

As for violins - Thank you for the tips.

To answer your questions:

Jack H. wrote:
...could have been a $10 string (which type of string is the new one and where did the older one break?) with a $20 service charge.


It was a "Red Label" string. The whole set is worth $12, so one string must be worth $4 at most. As for the "service charge" - I did not ask him to install the string or tune the violin, he just did it and charged me. Before he told me the fee I actually thought he was just being kind.

Little does he know I will never return to his store.

Jack H. wrote:
...do you have a pitch pipe or piano or synthesizer at the house?


We have a device to help tune it Smile

Jack H. wrote:
...anyway Craig, enjoy the new hobby and I do wish you have fun with Chloe! Cute kid!


I sure will! You have fun too, OK?

Cheers,
Craig

$30 to purchase, change a red label string and to tune it... jeez what gall.
Like I said, that can really turn a customer off!
If you get a half way decent teacher, they can usually let you know if somethig is out of whack on the violin.
another thing you can do is to put the scroll centered on your chin and site down the FB. you are looking at the bridge to ensure that it is evenly placed in relationship to the fb and centered on the upper holes of the f holes.

Israel is an interesting place to live, I will give it that.
It is a better place to raise kids than NYC, and I will give it that too.
Just takes some time to get used to the culture clash.
Another 15 years and I should be over it. 8~J

Fun is my middle name!

Your Luthier in Israel,
Jack
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spystyle
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Joined: 08 Feb 2008
Posts: 49
Location: Maine, USA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I never would have imagined it takes 10 years to learn to properly "set up" a violin. I guess when I look at them I see a simple (yet beautiful) "device" - I guess I have to stop thinking like a computer tech all the time Smile

Cheers,
Craig
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