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Cheap violins... |
Can be made to play with some work |
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Can be used as toys |
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Can be used as boat oars |
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This thread sux |
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Total Votes : 6 |
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spystyle Member
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 Posts: 49 Location: Maine, USA
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Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 2:53 pm Post subject: Questions about cheap eBay violins |
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Hello from Maine,
I have some questions about the $45 USD (shipped) violins on eBay.
It puzzles me, so I try to figure it out. Having worked in manufacturing before I am from the school of thought that "CNC cut" is perfect and "hand made" is not. But further reading has lead me to believe that a "hand made" violin is better because the violin luthier "hand tunes" each piece - making it thicker in some areas and thinner in others according to the sound it produces - something a machine can not do.
That really fascinates me. I guess that's the difference between making wooden furniture and making a wooden violin.
So these eBay violins are referred to as "VSO (violin shaped objects)" and they produce a "screachy" sound, see this expert player with a cheap violin, it sounds well executed but terribly "screachy" :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFlBaH7uflw
Oh it's sad that such a talented player has such a poor violin. So I wonder why does it sound so bad? Well I guess a $45 USD violin must have $2 strings, among other problems.
I wonder, what if you "upgrade" a $45 violin with some $30 strings, could that alone help make it playable?
This page has a tutorial that shows how to convert a VSO into a playable instrument:
http://hmi.homewood.net/vso/
Have you guys had any luck with VSO's ?
Cheers,
Craig
Last edited by spystyle on Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:34 am; edited 2 times in total |
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spystyle Member
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 Posts: 49 Location: Maine, USA
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Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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Hey, on the convert a VSO page he uses a template, I found printable templates here:
http://vitaliimport.net/cart/images/templateb.bmp
I suppose a person could print the template onto sticker paper, and make his own templates from wood.
Cheers,
Craig
Last edited by spystyle on Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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spystyle Member
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 Posts: 49 Location: Maine, USA
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Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:19 am Post subject: |
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Hmmm, no replies.. I guess no one has bought a "VSO" and brought it up to specs?
It interested me, so I bought a pink violin for my daughter for $43 shipped.
The funny this is - I bought it while looking for a violin case - the case, empty, was $49. The case with a violin in it was $43! Is that funny or what?
Also, what little girl wouldn't get a kick out of a pink violin?
I know it will arrive with $1 strings, so I ordered "Red label" strings which I was told is fine for 1st and 2nd year students. They could be referred to as $12 strings.
I will look into getting the correct tools and templates to make the pink violin a playable instrument.
Cheers,
Craig |
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Chris E. Junior Member
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Posts: 11
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Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:40 am Post subject: Re: Questions about cheap eBay violins |
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spystyle wrote: |
It puzzles me, so I try to figure it out. Having worked in manufacturing before I am from the school of thought that "CNC cut" is perfect and "hand made" is not. But further reading has lead me to believe that a "hand made" violin is better because the violin luthier "hand tunes" each piece - making it thicker in some areas and thinner in others according to the sound it produces - something a machine can not do.
Craig |
As a machinist myself, I find that mindset my biggest trap as I try to build my first violin. The simple fact is theres forces @ work here far greater than just the numbers. As best I can tell thus far, if you realy want to nit pick it can all come down down to how one grain ties into another. Truthfuly though, a cnc manufactured part is the same way. You can make a 1000 parts that are all extremly similar but push the numbers far enough past the decimal point and you'll find you probabaly have 1000 parts that are all quite unique |
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FiddleDoug Member
Joined: 08 Sep 2007 Posts: 227 Location: Hilton, NY
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Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:31 am Post subject: VSO |
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What makes you think that the player in the Youtube clip is playing a VSO? I don't think that Youtube is noted for audio or video quality. It was probably recorded on an inexpensive camcorder with a cheap mike. But back to the VSO question. Some of the things that you might find on a VSO:
Dyed wood fittings.
Poorly shaped fingerboard
Poorly fitted cheap pegs
Low quality wood in the instrument.
Very poor bridge and set-up (I had to rework one that had about 10 mm of string clearance at the end of the FB.)
Cheap strings
Bad bow
All that said, yes, most can be made to sound OK, but not great, and may require a considerable amount of work to get them there.
Also, the low quality wood may not be seasoned properly, and may warp, crack, or split at some point in the future. _________________ Doug Wall
www.wallindependent.com |
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Jack H. Super Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2007 Posts: 346 Location: Israel
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Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:08 am Post subject: |
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Hi Craig,
I have purchased a few VSos, not on Ebay but from distributors, because when I re-started the business here I had a demand for them, but I soon realized that the work I put into them was not going to come back to me in the prices I can charge for them, I stopped buying and reffer th ecustomers that want a $100 violin to go elsewhere after explaining all the problems that they will find with them.
I have had a few smart customers that were given VSOs as presents when significant others or family found out they wanted to play the violin and they just went to a music store( not a violin specialty shop mind you, you do get MUCH better service at a violin speacialty shop than at a music store)and purchased said violin shaped object of their loved one's desire.
They had the money to pay fro the upgrades and wanted to use the given violin so a complete overhaul was in order.
My experience tells me that these are the things that need to be done to a VSO to get it to sound not bad borderline good.
Pegs, most VSos come with soft wood and ill fitting pegs. New pegs are a must.
Done well ( and I mean the kind of good work that you will be giving the violin to your grandkids to play with the same pegs...)
a good pegjob will be $100 +/-. Yeah, I know, pegs from India are $4 a set, but they give poor results most of the time, just too much endgrain showing up in places and directions that hinder the job and make for poor results. Good quality ebony pegs are still inexpensive, but you pay for the knowlege and skill of a true craftsman to do the job right.
he/she went to school for 4 years and then went off to be worker for many years in a shop learning and practicing before striking out on his own. Heck any one can lay bricks, but a journeyman or master can do it just so much better and faster and he gets paid accordingly.
Afetr the pegs come the nut and FB. most times these too are made with soft, inferior and/or impropper woods that will cause many problems in the coming year. strings will dig into the nut and begin to buzz on the improperly shaped FB. The string spacing is haphazard at best and really needs to be correct for ease of playing. The fb itself , if being of soft wod will allow the strings themselves to cause grooves in the fb, making more hash buzzing tones. it also needs to have the propper curve left to right and a certain amount of flatness to concavity from top to bottom with no bumps even when measured with a 1 1/2 inch $30 straight edge. Being made from ebony would also help a LOT!
Nut and fingerboard will be at least $75, more to replace the fb.
Next come bridge and sound post.
The provided bridge may be of maple but it is very soft maple and very few grainlines. it is not cut with a good curve that allows you to play on one string at a time adn most likely it is too high or too low. This needs to be replaced with a good quality bridge from Aubert, Despieu or a third maker who I forgot the name of.
the bridge needs to be thinned to certain dimensions in various places, have the curve of the propper dimensions have the feet fit perfectly at the right height and the string groves filed into the proper location at the correct distances from each other. it should also be pleasant looking to the eye so we spend another 20 or so minutes whittling this and that to give it nicer curves. The sound post needs to fit the top and bottom curves perfectly at the right place with the right amount of tension, it needs to be of spruce 6mm diameter with straight grainlines.
bridge and soundpost.. at least $100. takes a bit of time.
afeter bridge adn soundpost you need a good set of Dominants at least.
Evas would bee too much.
Strings are another $30 at least.
Lastly the neck of the violin might not be at the right angle, creating an improper bridge height and and improper angle of the strings as they cross the bridge, resulting in either not enough or too much tension, both are detrimental to the tone of the violin. a NY neck reset takes care of that.
neck work, $100.
SO the bill comes in around $400 plus minus depending on where you go and we have not even talked about what a half decent bow can do for you! These improvements (providing that the bassbar is in the right place at least and not too carved down) will yield fantastic results in improved tone, projection playability and encreased fahrvergnügen. All this results in a much greater probability that you wll continue to see how much you improve and continue playing.
You are buying all this when you go to a violin specialty shop and buy a $600-$1000 violin starter set with case and bow. the instrument is also something a bit nicer than something made in China on a CNC machine, although they do also make some realy good student adnd top end stuff, but they are also a lot more expensive than $45.
Just my 2 sheckels worth.
Jack
pardon all the typos, I need to get the boy to soccer practice. not much time to proof. |
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spystyle Member
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 Posts: 49 Location: Maine, USA
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Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: VSO |
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FiddleDoug wrote: | What makes you think that the player in the Youtube clip is playing a VSO? |
The original poster states that it is a VSO.
(quote)
"lseeguan"
She uses China factory made 3/4 size violin.The price of the violin is $75-$80 (USD).It's hard to get a good quality violin in our country
(end quote)
Also every comment stated that it was a poor sounding instrument. You should have a second look
Jack : Thank you for your thought provoking and informative reply
Cheers,
Craig |
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Jack H. Super Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2007 Posts: 346 Location: Israel
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Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:40 pm Post subject: Re: Questions about cheap eBay violins |
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Chris E. wrote: | spystyle wrote: |
It puzzles me, so I try to figure it out. Having worked in manufacturing before I am from the school of thought that "CNC cut" is perfect and "hand made" is not. But further reading has lead me to believe that a "hand made" violin is better because the violin luthier "hand tunes" each piece - making it thicker in some areas and thinner in others according to the sound it produces - something a machine can not do.
Craig |
As a machinist myself, I find that mindset my biggest trap as I try to build my first violin. The simple fact is theres forces @ work here far greater than just the numbers. As best I can tell thus far, if you realy want to nit pick it can all come down down to how one grain ties into another. Truthfuly though, a cnc manufactured part is the same way. You can make a 1000 parts that are all extremly similar but push the numbers far enough past the decimal point and you'll find you probabaly have 1000 parts that are all quite unique |
True.
Also, if a bow factory turns out 1000 bows chances are that 2 of those 1000 will be much better than the others, this is because those specific sticks need the exact measurements that they all got. no hand work means no fine tuning.
Alos the mass produced plates are the same, but a few will be better than others. heck, even gun barrels are like that, they have the 1 in 1000 that will shoot straighter and with tighter groupings than all the rest, so there are differences in mass produced items no matter how similar they are.
Problem is that most mass produced violin plates are excessively thick. once you open them up and re-graduate them and put in a real bass bar you get a much better sound, so even with all the differences in mass produced items you still come down to the fact that there is no attentiion to detail adn things are left thick by the machine which is the limiting factor in these VSOs. |
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Jack H. Super Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2007 Posts: 346 Location: Israel
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Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: VSO |
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spystyle wrote: | FiddleDoug wrote: | What makes you think that the player in the Youtube clip is playing a VSO? |
The original poster states that it is a VSO.
(quote)
"lseeguan"
She uses China factory made 3/4 size violin.The price of the violin is $75-$80 (USD).It's hard to get a good quality violin in our country
(end quote)
Also every comment stated that it was a poor sounding instrument. You should have a second look
Jack : Thank you for your thought provoking and informative reply
Cheers,
Craig |
Just more sheckels worth...
Buy the dominant strings... they are 3x the price of the re Label, but the sound they make is much more pleasing to the player adn the listener, she will enjoy playing so much more...
J |
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spystyle Member
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 Posts: 49 Location: Maine, USA
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Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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OK, I'll buy the dominants. I keep hearing that I should
I had "Red label strings" because the person who sold me my daughter's "school violin" said that is all we will need for our first two years.
But I'm sure they are at least better than a $3 set of "Alice strings".
I found another VSO video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlvG20sf1vs
It's so scratchy, it hurts my ears (listen to minute 2:15).
But it's perfectly executed.
Cheers,
Craig |
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spystyle Member
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 Posts: 49 Location: Maine, USA
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Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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Are "Thomastik Vision" as good as "Thomastik Dominant" ?
Thank you,
Craig |
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FiddleDoug Member
Joined: 08 Sep 2007 Posts: 227 Location: Hilton, NY
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Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:38 pm Post subject: VSO |
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I went back to the Youtube link. When I had originally viewed it, I didn't scroll down to see the comments, and missed the "Chinese factory violin" comment. It would be interesting to see what the same $75 violin would sell for over here. _________________ Doug Wall
www.wallindependent.com |
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spystyle Member
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 Posts: 49 Location: Maine, USA
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Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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I think they were referring to it as a "$75 USD violin", I don't think they actually paid that much. It is probably from the same factory as the "$45 eBay violins".
Cheers,
Craig |
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Jack Rushing Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2007 Posts: 170
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Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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Hi spystyle, Yes, it's bad, but not toooo bad. with good strings, a new
properly carved bridge and setup, it would sound much better. The girl
obviously has talent, to have been able to get the sound that she did, out of it. |
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spystyle Member
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 Posts: 49 Location: Maine, USA
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Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:52 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, she totally rocks! |
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