Violin Forum/Message Board

jessupe goldastini · Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:51 am Post subject: opinions please

so....my freindgirl plays in an orchestra, she has a high chair{assistant principle}...she bought a new made violin from a famous maker bout 10 years ago...after about 8 years of good service and great tone, the sound started to degrad as well as the response time....ALL major surgery was performed {by the maker} in attempt to remedy the situation, many sound post's, bridges, adjustments, bas bar, regraduation in areas, soundpost patch renforcement...etc...nothing worked...she is giving up on the violin....the maker is very stand up and will buy it back for the price she paid, he will do o.k as his prices have dramatically increased since her purchase, so everyone is happy....he is a great guy and excellent maker, i am not talking bad about him,please let that be clear....the qeustion is why.....it is generally considerd that a well made instrument will improve over time....no?.....how and or why do you think this happend?.....8 years then k'put.....

Chris E. · Junior Member Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Posts: 11

Speaking strictly as a consumer: I would say, just because you paid $50k for a bmw doesnt mean you didnt just buy an 50k lemon thats gonna blow up long before its time. Does this mean that's the norm, absolutelty not. If it were I doubt they'd be getting 50K a car. Does it still happen? Probably more than they'd like to admit. Forutnanetly, companies like that pride themselves on standing by their work, and will almost always do whats necesary to rectify the situation.

Sounds to me like you've found yourself in similar situation. For whatever reason things didnt all come together despite everyone's best intentions. You have a stand up guy willing to do whatever it takes to see to it your happy, and based on what little information you've provided, hes quite good at what he does. If it were me, I think I would take the situation as a fluke, and trade the instrument in for another. Someone else is easy to come by. Somone who will stand by his work the way this person seems willing to be isn't

jessupe goldastini · Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:43 am Post subject:

yes a fluke would seem to be it....the post is not intended to bash the maker....he's done everything he could....and will rectify the situation by buying it back...what i'm trying to find out from a makers point of veiw is.....

why a fiddle that had exceptional playability and tone...stopped playing and sounding good.....and no matter what attempts were made to rectify, it could not fix it....

problems i speculate on are

cellular wood issues
glue issues
purfling hinge effect disruption
too thin of graduation
?????????

i appreciate your response

jesse

Jack Rushing · Member Joined: 23 Mar 2007 Posts: 170

A mystery for sure. It might be worth the effort to follow up on some of
your speculations, the cellular wood issue. Not the result of aging, but wood
moisture content. The wood might have become either too dry, or too damp. Try drying out the wood first, if that does not work, saturate it.
If this fails, I would consider re-gluing the top and the back. I don't know
about the hinge effect, or the graduation.

mapleleaf_gal · Member Joined: 24 Mar 2007 Posts: 73 Location: tucson, az

what were the ongoing issues with the violin? if the top was graduated too thin or the neck angle was not right to begin with, then these can be problems that will show up over time due to the instrument "settling in".

it is good that the maker really backed up his work and tried working with her as long as he did. and even better that he was willing to give her a refund after such a long time.
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jessupe goldastini · Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:05 am Post subject:

map's....thats what is kinda funny to me....i would think that if it were a too thin plate that it would have shown up earlier....

and well yes he has been very good....heck i would'nt want her as a client, with all her cunning stunts and all

jack....the top had come off and been reglued, along with just about everything else....

no, i would not DARE touch this violin personally....jessupe only works on jessupe's....that way i stay within my one dimensional idiom of medocrity

well it shall remain a mystery i guess....the violin, much like my dog, has not learned how to speak, so all we can do is keep trying

FiddleDoug · Member Joined: 08 Sep 2007 Posts: 227 Location: Hilton, NY

I don't have that much experience with this type of problem. Just a long shot, but are we sure that there isn't something going on with the bow? As I said, it's just a long shot question from a fairly new luthier, and I would guess that a good player would pick-up on a bow problem really quickly. Keep us informed on any resolution to this.
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www.wallindependent.com

Jack Rushing · Member Joined: 23 Mar 2007 Posts: 170

One thing for sure. there has got to be a reason for the sound to have been
degrading. And, your luthier, and the members of this forum should be able to find it. It is rare for a violin to have played well for eight years, and start
to go bad in the last two. Could you tell us a little more about the sound?
Is it the same on all strings, or just a couple of them. You can usually check
this without putting on a new set, by loosening each string one at a time,
lift the ball out of the tailpiece, and turn them half over. This will give you a
part new surface for the bowing. If you are willing to spend the time and
labor, I believe the solution can be found. Also check to see if the neck is
loose. I am anxious to know what the trouble is too. Please post all the
information you can about it, and let us know if, and when, you are making any progress. Good Luck.

Jeffrey Holmes · Member Joined: 03 Apr 2007 Posts: 90 Location: Ann Arbor

Hi Jack;

I believe there are many, many reasons a single instrument might tonally or physically degrade... including environment, materials, a small change in the maker's procedure (design or implementation), varnish (some may take years to cure fully), etc., etc.

While there may be a "cure", the cure could certainly be a new fiddle in this case. I've seen the bottom drop out of older instruments as well, but the value of the fine ones will ensure that a solution will be found if possible... often at a cost well above what a top end contemporary maker would charge for an instrument.

From the information that has been provided, it seems that the maker has been concerned with plate stiffness (I believe a SP stiffening patch was mentioned). Might be there is a material problem. Some deformation in the arch may also be present.

The long and short of the situation is that the maker apparently has a good reputation, and therefore this is very possibly an anomaly. If a maker makes 100 instruments, and one goes a bit south, I'd say that's not too bad an average.

The fact that the maker is willing to deal with the problem in an honorable manner is really the "meat" of the story.
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http://holmesviolins.com

Jack Rushing · Member Joined: 23 Mar 2007 Posts: 170

Jeffrey, Well stated. Thank You.

jessupe goldastini · Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:43 am Post subject:

well here the latest...

first the violin is still bunk...

mr"blank" as i have stated has done all he can, and probably would do more{not that theres much he can do} all at his expense{cept for the new bass bar}and well i will not metion his name, most here would know his name and I do not not want to be known as a bad rumor mill starter kinda guy, however i think his going the extra mile speaks more for the kind of maker he is rather than one bad instrument as stated by our resident expert mr. holmes....

jack...first we all have different levels of exposure to tone, through these exposers to sound we all come up with our own vocabulary to describe types of sound...

that violin sounds

loud
sweet
dark
flat
nasal'y
rope'y
tin'y
round
hollow
deep
woody
dead
vibrant
brite
mellow
rich
soft
balanced unbalanced

etc....to describe good or bad qaulites

the violin when i first met her was ...deep,rich,vibrant with more sweet light overtones on the high registers

now its rope'y on the lows, lost reverb, kinda flat on the highs, and seems unresponsive under quick passages, as if a foriengn movie with the sound track off kilter....

i have personally heard this violin degrade, have some things done to it, sound a little better, then slip back into no goodness.....

again, i am not qaulified to work on such an instrument

so i belive that the violin has some wood issues that relate to climate changes over time...the graduation of the top plate may be suspect...however at this point, it is being shelved until she figures out what she wants to do with it...

until then she picked up a funky but great sounding george cloz that defys all logic...

its kinda beat, the scroll has had more surgery than joan rivers, the top plate has grain spread of 7mil in the wider parts, the ribs have knot flitches, the back has no flame at all, the back plate is very thin and yet it sounds amazing, and it real cheap comparitivley, so for now it will do...

thanks for all your responses..

jess

jwold · Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject: bass bar spring?

Not a builder myself and as the violin is back in the hands of the creator perhaps the question can be answered easily by that person. I'm wondering if the bass bar was added with a certain amount of "spring" in it. Something often done with archtop guitars...not really being a builder myself, I'm not sure if something like that is commonly done in traditional violin building either old or new, or in the case of this particular violin.
If it was done with this violin...might the bassbar have lost some of it's spring?