Violin Forum/Message Board

ollieken · Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:08 pm Post subject: Gelatin as as sealer

How do you apply gelatin for a sealer Do you do the whole violin
or just the top ? How much water do you mix with the ground
I understand there are other way`s to do this .
Ken

MANFIO · Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:23 am Post subject:

My current method is:

1 - my oil varnish diluted in turpentine, 2 coats;

2 - one coat of "acqua di colla", that is, diluted, thin hide glue with some alum. This thin glue, when cold, will form quite a weak gelatin.
_________________
www.manfio.com

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7875988@N02/with/464604020/

ollieken · Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:36 pm Post subject: TO MIX GELATION

Manfio Thank you for the reply I found this site with the instuction for Gelatin
Half a Litre water 30gr gelatin mix in warm water heat until it is clear
apply with a one inch bristle bruch

http://www.hammerl.com/english/beizen.php

http://www.hammerl.com/ Main site

masterbass · Junior Member Joined: 09 Oct 2007 Posts: 24

Hello,
I have read this interesting post about the gelatin and I have two question.
1- What is the reason to use gelatin? Has gelatin any positive efect on sound?
2- What kind of gelatin is used?There are some kinds of gelatin, alimentary, vegetal, animal...

thank you!!!
_________________
www.contrabajo.es
www.forumcontrabajo.foroactivo.com

Spanish doublebass site

jessupe goldastini · Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:16 am Post subject:

gel is a size ground coat{stain controller} that will allow for even color absorbstion for those that use stains to achieve color, also helps colored varnish flow well and reduced streaking and blotchiness......hyde glue is a type of gelitin and if mixed weak as suggested by the "man"fio will create a sufficeint ground coat

masterbass · Junior Member Joined: 09 Oct 2007 Posts: 24

jessupe goldastini · Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:26 am Post subject:

its a mordant and hardener, that allows for "fix"ing and brittleness

masterbass · Junior Member Joined: 09 Oct 2007 Posts: 24

Thanks jessupe!!!

It´ll be interesting experimenting with alum next time.
I´m learning very much in this forum, but sometimes is difficult to translate some words to spanish, specially technical ones. Usually they have other names in spanish.

Thank you again
_________________
www.contrabajo.es
www.forumcontrabajo.foroactivo.com

Spanish doublebass site

actonern · Super Member Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 444

Manfio:

You're so helpful on these forums! Would you be willing to go 1 step further and explain what this means?

"one coat of "acqua di colla", that is, diluted, thin hide glue with some alum. This thin glue, when cold, will form quite a weak gelatin."

That is to say, how much glue in how much water and how much is "some" alum?

Best regards...

ollieken · Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:33 am Post subject: Gelaton mix

Hi I got this gelaton from violin suppllier It is a ground
How to mix it 30 grams to half a litre of warm water .It dont take half a litre to do a violin so just mix what you think you need in other words smaller batch The folks that work at this know what looks ok us newbies have to meaure & worry !!
1/4 of a batch . I was told one time if i was stuck for glue use gelaton that you use to make jam I guess it `s all glue
This gelaton sealer is just a lite coat of glue Hope this helps
I have learned a lot from this forum so if i am wrong someone will let me know Thank you folks for all the helpful posts ken

Chet Bishop · Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:49 am Post subject:

You are correct that it is glue, but if it is as thin as it should be, it will penetrate a little, and not seem like a coating of glue, particularly. It will also add significantly to the stiffness of the top.

I had one top that was a little too thin, so I decided it would not hurt to try to soak it with glue on the inside. I slathered it on there pretty good, working it in with warm water, to keep it liquid.

When it dried, it curled up like a leaf, and was very stiff. I had to moisten it with warm water to get it to lie flat, and then clamp it in the working cradle until it dried again. The result was a very light, very stiff top plate.

I was concerned that it might absorb moisture out of the air, so I sealed it with a single very thin coat of varnish, as well. The young lady who has been playing it for the last few years loves it, as does her teacher, so apparently it worked out well.

I'm sure there are several good reasons NOT to have done all this...the best thing would have been to not over-thin the plate to begin with. Smile

ollieken · Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: Gelaton

Chet Are you talking about the Jam gelaton or the ground when i mixed the sealer from the supplier it went on & left nice lite coating on
sticky on the fingers too !!!
Dont know about the jam gelaton for a sealer Ken

Chet Bishop · Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject:

I'm talking hide glue--same as I use to build the fiddle, but thinned way down, to allow easy brushing and hopefully some penetration.

Make sure and restrain it while it is drying-- I wasn't kidding about it curling up as the glue dried and shrank. The second try, I clamped it wet-side up in the working cradle, and it dried very satisfactorily-- and quite a bit stiffer than it had been without the glue.

masterbass · Junior Member Joined: 09 Oct 2007 Posts: 24

Manfio, could you explain how to make the "acqua di colla"? I mean the proportion of hide glu, Alum, and water and the best way to mix them.
I have read about other people who had adherence probles using glue as ground. How do you avoid this?

Thank you very much
_________________
www.contrabajo.es
www.forumcontrabajo.foroactivo.com

Spanish doublebass site

MANFIO · Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:35 am Post subject:

"Acqua di colla" is literally "glue water", that is, a very diluted glue. I make it this way:

I warm some water, 100 ml, put some glue (I don't weigt) and some alum (like a pinch of salt, the alum) and let it dissolve and cool a bit (I don't like to apply it hot).

When dry, you will see no glue residue over the wood, it will penetrate entirely in the wood.
_________________
www.manfio.com

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7875988@N02/with/464604020/