Violin Forum/Message Board

Shirley · Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject:

Manfio - wouldn't that be funt ot read?

FiddleDough - OK for you, Buddy! (But I'll have to file that one with my viola joke collection.)

MANFIO · Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject:

Hi Shirley! I think I read that in a Strad Magazine, perhaps 20 years ago...
_________________
www.manfio.com

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7875988@N02/with/464604020/

Michael Darnton · Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:57 pm Post subject:

This particular viola wouldn't relate to that letter--this varnish is more like the earlier French makers like Guersan and Salamon used, though you also will find it on French instruments up into the early 1800s.

Andres Sender · Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:18 am Post subject:

JWH you give the impression that you don't understand how violin identification works. Your imputation of faith-based thinking to 'pro-Messiah' experts seems patronizing and, if indeed it comes from a position of ignorance, it would be gratuitous as well as rude.

You may find it useful to look into the issue a bit further, in which case you would find out, among other things, that modern experts don't mistake Vuillaumes for Stradivari violins.

You would also realize that Michael's dollar analogy is correct because the veracity of a dollar is found through physical examination by someone with the necessary knowledge. Provenance is mere gravy in the identification of violins by important makers. It seems you've been wrestling with a straw man.

JWH · Member Joined: 26 Mar 2007 Posts: 72

"JWH you give the impression that you don't understand how violin identification works. Your imputation of faith-based thinking to 'pro-Messiah' experts seems patronizing and, if indeed it comes from a position of ignorance, it would be gratuitous as well as rude."

You don't need to label me as gratuitous and rude. The violin is controversial. You want to label the dendrology folks rude for making an effort to validate or not validate even though now one group is winning out on public opinion about those conclusions. I don't follow a goat herd like some people do and criticize open discussion or research. You have a right to your opinion. And yes contrary to what Manfio said, it's my understanding that Vuillaume did make several copies of the Messiah.

Let's try and calm the personal criticisms....It's easy to label someone ignorant and rude to inflate a sense of ego.

Jeffrey Holmes · Member Joined: 03 Apr 2007 Posts: 90 Location: Ann Arbor

jessupe goldastini · Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:35 am Post subject:

"JWH. I'm not trying to be insulting, or calling you rude, but I have to say that you're doing as much "following" as anyone... just a different herd. "

yes...people fall into groups, and then theres those that don't fall into groups, however try as they might, they still are in a group of people that don't fall into groups, so thus a group...the only way to be groupless is to be autistic and just listen to the voices in your head.....works great for me

the voice says....in a loud thunderous god like voice...jessupe....you are an instant expert know it all, you will see the experts lips move, but you will not hear what they say,its not because they are not right,its because you don't care to understand....you are an idiot....i just smile knowingly and adjust my polyester pants......oh ya whos bad

esoteric agendas abound...but not with "that" messiah

Chet Bishop · Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:32 am Post subject:

I make no pretense of having the answers, and have never been east of Detroit, very much...so I have never visited Oxford, nor especially Italy. Maybe someday...if I ever get to go, I will definitely take the time to go see the Ashmolean collection.

One of the things that continues to impress me is the accuracy with which the REAL experts can immediately recognize the work of a given maker. Michael Darnton (I think it was him, anyway) told once about a particular guy flicking through Michael's "flashcards" (from which he was teaching himself to recognize the various makers), and after the first few, declared that "this is too easy!" and turned all the photos upside down, to "up the ante", but still flicked through without hesitation, correctly naming the maker of every single instrument in the stack of cards.

When those guys (the real experts) discuss the "Messiah" Strad, one thing they seem to concur on is that IF Mr. Stradivari is not the maker, then they do not know who it is, because it is NOT x, y, z (list of the other known makers of the proper time-frame), as they would recognize their work.

Most seem to agree that it is the work of Stradivarius, though there are some oddities. But then (I think), the man made 1200 instruments, over several decades of work, and they DO differ from one another...why would it be unthinkable that this one should have something a little different about it, when we only have about half his total output to compare to?

To me, it isn't really worth arguing over. If I ever get to where I can make a good enough violin that one of those experts would see a photo of my work, and say, "Ah, yes! Chet was doing pretty good work at that time..." I would be thrilled. Right now, it would be "sigh...cottage-industry; self-taught; maker unknown..." and move to the next photo.

(And they'd be right again!)

arglebargle · Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:58 am Post subject:

Oh yeah?
I don't even think the "Messiah" is a violin.
Oh sure, it LOOKS like a violin, but who can really say?
Besides, I made it, whatever it is.

GuyGallo · Junior Member Joined: 12 Dec 2007 Posts: 1

The Messiah is a "controversial violin" only because a certain number of people ASSERT that it is controversial.

In the same way that the Apollo moon landings might be said to be controversial because there are a number of people who assert loudly that the landings happened in Nevada.

The actual controversy over the dendro has been settled for some time.

I don't know of any serious violin experts, appraisers or players -- especially those that have seen the instrument -- have any doubt as to its authenticity.

As for why it was hanging on Strad's wall at the time of his death... isn't it possible that after he completed it it sounded horrible? Or at least not up to his standards? That may also account for why it is played so infrequently.

I think the only person who praised it's sound was a player who heard it while it was moving from Alard's estate to the Hills... at which point it vanished from site until the Ashmolean gift.

Jack H. · Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject:

and I dont find it too unreasonable that nearly after a lifetime of a maker making things he makes one that he thinks is more beautify than every other violin, of even say to himself that he wants one of these famous Stradivari violins for himself...
Not too unreasonable at all.

Heck maybe it was so long since he made one all by himself that he wanted to show himself that he still had what it takes do do it from a to z...his self.

J

Michael Darnton · Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:19 pm Post subject:

Chet is correct--it was Robert Bein who did so well identifying from photos. He also walked into the shop one day when someone had brought in a violin he'd never seen before, and from across the room, before the door swung closed said "where'd the Betts come from" and he was right about that. I saw him do similar things many times. People who can do that don't need descriptive details to recognize a violin any more than you need a photograph to compare with to recognize your brother.