Violin Forum/Message Board

FiddleDoug · Member Joined: 08 Sep 2007 Posts: 227 Location: Hilton, NY

With the info that the glue softens with water(might work even better with diuted vinegar), I would make a little "wick" with some paper towel and drape it under the fingerboard and down the sides of the neck. Wet it with water or vinegar and let it sit for several hours. Clean off any soft glue and check for looseness. Wet again and let sit. Might take a while. Let us know how things work.
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Doug Wall

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HAK · Junior Member Joined: 27 Apr 2008 Posts: 18

I used 3 glass beer bottle caps of water painted on the joint with a Qtip over about 4 hours and it came loose. took a little force, it was tight... OK, I know that I need to clean the old glue off, but I need to know the next steps. Here's another pic.
Thanks

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Hank WD5JFR

HAK · Junior Member Joined: 27 Apr 2008 Posts: 18

I got of the glue off, only 2 minor wood chips came with it. The glue was quite thick but not very well distributed, just a flattened gob. There were no shims or spacers. Since this is my first venture inside a violin I have to wonder how the finger board height is set, surely not with glue. Perhaps it was improperly repaired and whoever did the repair let the glue determine the action. What's next?
Thanks
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Hank WD5JFR

FiddleDoug · Member Joined: 08 Sep 2007 Posts: 227 Location: Hilton, NY

Glad it came out for you! When you're ready to glue it back in, check all the angles several times before and several times after you apply the glue. Don't want any nasty surprises after the glue sets.
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Doug Wall

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HAK · Junior Member Joined: 27 Apr 2008 Posts: 18

. I'm familiar with guitar neck resets and getting the action right and how its measured but clueless on a violin. As it is right now the parts fit together quite nicely, snug with little play but what do I measure and where. The angle of the finger board has to be critical and I guess that is set with shims or spacers. Where do I get them and what and where do I measure? Is ther a URL with some pics?
Thanks
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Hank WD5JFR

byacey · Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 10:39 pm Post subject:

there's all kind of guages and measuring tools to set the neck angle. I find the simplest is to measure from the belly up to the crown of the finger board. If the angle is right, it should measure between 13/16 to 15/16 inches above the belly. I tend to set them on the high side because they tend to sink a little over time.

As for the shim, I would glue a new piece of wood onto the block and then recut the new wood with a chisel for the proper angle. Trying to cut a shim to the right taper and then gluing it in seems like a more difficult way of doing it.

Mark Sullivan · Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 1:06 am Post subject:

I am quite new to this but I believe you have reached the point where things get a bit more complicated if you chose to do anything other than reglue the neck back in as is.
The thread " How deep does the neck go into the block" on this forum has good information on how to visualize the neck angle and typical heel angles.
Mr. Darnton and Mr. Sender's replies have helped me visually understand neck angle, neck length, neck overstand and how they relate. Though I had to reread the thread a couple weeks later to understand what I think I understand. Smile

.
Henry Strobel's book "Useful Measurements for Violin Makers" has most of the measurements and drawings to accompany them. I have found it quite helpful.

One place to start, possibly, after cleaning the old glue off would be to check fingerboard projection. Reinstall the neck, clamp it lightly, lay a straightedge on the the fingerboard so it projects out over the table where the bridge would be, the distance between the top or table and the bottom of the straightedge should be around 27 mm.

Mark

FiddleDoug · Member Joined: 08 Sep 2007 Posts: 227 Location: Hilton, NY

I think for this instrument, we can keep things simple. Dry fit it to the original fit. Measure the height of the end of the fingerboard (top center) above the belly. It should be in the 20-21 mm range. Sight down the center of the fingerboard (might be helpful to draw a line with a china marker) from the nut towards the end pin. Should line up. If both of those are OK, you're probably good to go. Make sure that these alignments stay the same when gluing with hot hide glue.
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Doug Wall

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HAK · Junior Member Joined: 27 Apr 2008 Posts: 18

I'd like to use hot hide glue but that would be a lot of trouble for a small one shot deal. Finding and getting some, setting up to boil it and then using a dab for this job and maybe never again. What are my next best alternatives, that are satisfactory since this has to be cheapo import.
Hank
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Hank WD5JFR

byacey · Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 11:36 am Post subject:

Since it appears to be originally sealed with hide glue, scrape off all the carpenters glue and perhaps used prepared liquid hide glue in the small bottles that can be bought commercially. This isn't as good as the real hide glue, but it's not going to create more of a problem in the future aside from perhaps letting go, which even real hide glue can do as well.

FiddleDoug · Member Joined: 08 Sep 2007 Posts: 227 Location: Hilton, NY

For an occasional one time use you can actually use unflavored gelatin.

Here's some info: http://www.frets.com/FRETSPAGES/Luthier/TipsTricks/KitchenGlue/kitchenglue.html

Make sure you don't boil the glue. Temperatures too much higher than the usual 145 deg. F can degrade the glue.

Hope this info is useful.
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Doug Wall

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HAK · Junior Member Joined: 27 Apr 2008 Posts: 18

With all the old glue scraped off the dry fit between the fingerboard tip and belly measures about 20.5 mm. That's with me holding the neck in as tight as possible with one hand and measuring with the other. My next question is, what are the tricks to clamping it while the glue dries. I have unused bottle of Titebond Liquid Hide Wood Glue that has been on the shelf for about 2 years, never opened. Is there an easy way to tell if it's still good? Just for grins I spread some on a piece of wood and it looks good, is tacky so I put another piece on to see how strong it'll be tomorrow.

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Hank WD5JFR

Chet Bishop · Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:02 pm Post subject:

Please! Don't use titebond! Use hide glue...the real stuff. Hot hide glue. Nothing else, not the liquid stuff in a bottle, or any other whaddabouts.

The liquid hide glue has a nasty habit of waiting for a humid day or some other source of water, and reverting to the liquid state. If you are in a dry climate you may get away with it for years, but why wish it on someone else down the line?[/b]

FiddleDoug · Member Joined: 08 Sep 2007 Posts: 227 Location: Hilton, NY

There's a picture on my website. It's in the "What's in the shop" section. I may be a bit obsessive, but I like to clamp things every which way. There's a strap clamp to hold the neck into the body, a clamp to hold the neck to the button, a wedge under the FB to make sure that doesn't drop, and a couple to make sure the lateral angle doesn't change. Way excessive, but safe.
http://www.wallindependent.com/Latest%20from%20Shop.htm
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Doug Wall

www.wallindependent.com

HAK · Junior Member Joined: 27 Apr 2008 Posts: 18

Doug
Neat setup but I think for my situation it would be overkill. I guess I'll have to figure out a rube goldberg.. Off to the grocer to see if they have Knox Gelatin.
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Hank WD5JFR