Violin Forum/Message Board

[Michael Darnton]

If you're going to use the type of logic in your previous post, the if the Strad Museum had arching templates, you'd be telling me they were someone else's, or an experiment, or whatever other thing you could think of to dismiss them. We kind of have to go with what we have, which is multiple violins with punch marks on the inside, and anvil marks on the outside, versus none with things the other way around.

[CT Dolan]

No, I like to think with an open mind and just found it odd that no arching templates nor drawings remained in the relics of Stradivari, despite f-hole drawngs and templates, and numerous forms for the body of instruments (along with many other curious items, drawings, etc.). However, I was also unaware that several instruments from Stradivari existed with inner punch marks and outer dimples, so please understand my perspective. I try to not draw too many conclusions, but I do like to think about the subject and this does of necessity lead to some conclusions, even if only temporary as new information is revealed. Regardless, I always try to remain open to all possiblities, unless utterly absurd (which does require a certain level of discernment).

[Roger Hill]

Awww, c'mon, Michael. Tell me what you really think about my arch shapes. And for Gawd's sake, stop me before I assassinate another Herring I am having a hard time understanding what there is to object to about a method that reproduces every Cremonese long arch for which I have posters or good pictures, that produces curtate cycloid cross arches if one wants to so carve the edges, that will leave punch marks on the inside and anvil marks on the outside if one doesn't scrape them away and will also leave punch marks on the outside if they are not completely scraped away, that reproduces those pathological long arches of Pietro and Andrea Guarneri that have the high points of the arches in the upper bouts. It meets every test I can think of. Like everyone else here I am trying to figure out how Nick, Tony and Joe crafted their products, and in so doing I rely heavily on your knowledge and advice. So tell me more........specifically what is wrong with the arches that result from what I propose?

Oded: I can see one advantage to starting the inside carving first with the method I propose, and that is that in effect, you have a cross arch template for every location along the length of the violin. In principle, you should be able to carve a top arch with greater fidelity to your intended arch than you are able to do with only five cross-arch templates. The price you pay for this benefit is that you must finish the interior to a good quality, only to plane and scrape that work away as you do the interior graduation. I think that on balance, there is more work to the inside first method I proposed. If you have enough apprentices doing the rough-out work it only affects your profit margin.

Roger Hill

[Oded Kishony]

[Michael Darnton]

Roger, the problem is that you say your arch matches a Cremonese arch, but from the pictures it's not even remotely close. I can believe what you say, or I can believe what my eyes tell me. Since we're so far apart in our perceptions, is there really anything to discuss?

[Roger Hill]

Michael, you are going to have to be just a bit more specific for me to understand what you are seeing that I am not. When I hang my Strad posters on the wall I can hold my chains in such a manner that they overlay the curves perfectly. If you are under the impression that those pictures of the chains are the actual arch, of course they are not. Those only illustrate the nature of the curves and how the different types of catenaries differ, not the actual arches for a violin, which would be much lower. Please tell me specifically what you are seeing so that I have some chance to understand what you see that I don't.

Oded: I was referring to Strad as having apprentices and presumably doing quite well making violins. Of course I don't make a living at this. I can't think of any reason why anyone would want to buy one of my experiments While I am an old guy, I was too young when I toured Tony's shop to remember where he kept his chains. My memory is just a bit foggy when I go that far back:wink:

Also, I understand the rays through a single point/straight line property of the catenary, but I am having a hard time visualizing what you are describing. Could you give me a little more description of the geometry you are thinking of? Thanks,

Roger Hill

[CT Dolan]

I have one question for which I'd like to find the answer, and that is to what degree is the form of the long arch of the belly (namely, bulging near the ends and a flat region around the bridge) a result of deformation, and to what extent was the form we see today intentional? That cross arches seem to show no signs of gross deformity implies that the overall form of these 300+ year-old instruments has not changed all that much over time, but I may be wrong in my assessment.

Also, to what extent might a top change shape when string pressure has been relieved, or do the Strad posters, etc. take this into account?

[Oded Kishony]

[Michael Darnton]

Roger, your back arch (and top arch, too) illustrated in the drillpress getting a stress test looks nothing like a Cremonese arch--the back is much flatter in the upper and lower thirds, and pointier in the middle third. The top misses even more, in just about every respect--so much that I have to assume that your visual standards aren't high enough to have any sort of discussion.

I'm not intending that as an insult, but it's just straightforwardly true. Torbjorn's arch, in his photographs, missed the mark as well, by a longshot. I'm not sure what one can do talking with someone who doesn't have the discrminatory powers necessary for a discussion. Visual discrimination and classification is not a born-in trait; for instance, everyone I've trained routinely has a hard time seeing bumps on neck carving, arching, etc. Slowly they get it, if I keep pointing, over days or weeks. It's not the easy thing people assume.

Today I shot the arch of a nice 1715 Strad back, aligned so that the arch could be revealed properly, and then digested this from it: http://darntonviolins.com/images2/strad-back-arch.jpg
The button and neck are on the right, and the chinrest on the left.

It fits a circle almost perfectly, except for being a bit flattened in the center (or rounder at the ends, if you choose) the exact opposite of what a catenary would give. This is precisely what I'm used to seeing on old Cremonese instruments, with very few exceptions.

As for the warping of tops, predicting that sort of thing is very dangerous. For whatever it's worth, instruments of an old age which probably did have identical top and back arching shapes have not warped into what we associate with good old instruments, and when restorers "correct" archings, they don't remove the flat spot--they just puff it up a bit, nor do they change the ends much. Even though the arch is quite flexible, there are definite limits to how much and in what directions you can move it--it's not a piece of rubber that you can push around at will, and correcting arching consists of redistributing it, not changing its form. The bottom line is that you can't count on distortion to turn your violin into a Strad anymore than Vuillaume was able to count on time turning his violins into Strads.

In my workshop I show a nice method of generating top and back long arches which almost exactly replicate what you see on old instruments. The top arch is a particularly interesting case, inasmuch as the "humps" at the end are not random, but very predictable with a simple plan using circles. Actually, the long archings are much less sophisticated than the cross archings, but a proper long arch "explains" a lot of visual things thatCremonese violins are recognized for.

[Roger Hill]

Michael: I think you need to look at those pictures in the context of what was being discussed in that thread. A couple of posters had concluded that the flattened section of the Cremonese arch arose purely from the pressure from the bridge. I pressed down on those arches sufficiently to give 1/4 inch deflection to illustrate that when you press down on the arches at a point north of the soundpost, you simply will not get an arch shape that is symmetric end to end, as i see on many Cremonese fiddles. The pictures of the arches that are not undergoing the stress test gives a good indication of the shape of the arches resulting from my method. I'll try to post some more pictures soon that show my comparison to Strad posters. BTW, for an old guy, my eyesight is generally pretty good, as is my perception of bumps, squiggles and wiggles. The point of the inhomogeneous chain is that it gives a profile that is "a bit flattened in the center (or rounder at the ends, if you choose)", just as you see (and I see), see the very first picture I posted as the illustration of this. I accept that there is no intent to insult, but I do wish you would read my posts a little more carefully. I appreciate your finally telling me what you object to so that we can have an intelligent discussion about it.

[Michael Darnton]

The image I was referring to is the one of the plates in the unstressed position.

[CT Dolan]

From what Michael has to say, there's obviously a lot more to this than meets my untrained eye, so I am just going to sit back and try to learn something (and stop making so many assumptions).

Speak up, please, and please offer some more illustrations so the rest of us can begin to grasp the finer points of Cremonese form, so we can begin to develop an all-important skill, the ability to practice proper discernment.

[CT Dolan]

You know, I'd like to add that this sort of stuff has always made the field seem so daunting, because just as one begins to think they're getting somewhere and are gaining an understanding of the subject, they learn how little ground they've covered and how very far they've left to travel.

But, from now on I am going to look at this from a different perspective, that of my own experiences in life. I grew up on a small, organic and diversified farm (we raised everything, which was everything we ate in fact, organically because this is how my father grew up, before organic was even a word), and have lived and worked on such farms my whole life, even when in college. Over the years, especially from my youth, I have developed a discerning eye for many things most would take for granted. For one, I can look at an animal and tell you just about all you might want to know about that animal (their condition, age, personality, weaknesses, strenghts, etc.). I can also look at about any plant and tell what it lacks, and what it has in abundance (and it has a lot more to do with the plant than merely how it looks to the eye). I can also look at a piece of ground and tell what it will grow well, and what it won't, and why (which is usually evident from what is alreay growing there, but also includes, drainage, air currents, sun, soil condtion and type, etc.). I can also read the sky like an open book, from year to year and season to season (because differing years and peculiar trends present a unique quality all their, but with important similarities as well, which is critical as it allows one to make sense of the sky overhead). Much of what I have learned came from my father, but it took adulthood and having children of my own to finally appreciate in full all he taught me over the endless moments we shared as we worked side by side, for hours on end in rain, wind, sun and bitter cold (sweat and toil, adversity of any sort, is great for bonding).

Anyway, I do not say any of this other than to illustrate the fact that we're each a product of our past and hold a vast store of accumulated knowledge, and we learn more every day of our lives. As one person once told me, we go to school every day, so I suppose I can, given time, learn this as well.

[Oded Kishony]

[Roger Hill]

Michael: Those arches were my attempt recreate the Kreisler arches from the cateneries shown on MN. Next you'll tell me I carve like a beginner