Violin Forum/Message Board

[CT Dolan]

One last question...

Up until a month or so ago I never even knew ventral pins existed in old Cremonese violins, and now that I've learned of them the only explanation I've seen for their existence has been the article in The Strad by Torbjorn. Does anyone else know of any other explanations that have been put forward? What is considered to be the most plausible of the lot?

Thank you.

[Oded Kishony]

They are a bit of a mystery. Various explanations include that they were for the compass point to draw graduations. They were a 'carver's screw' used to anchor the plate to the bench.

Look for the simplest explanation it's usually the right one.

Oded

[Andres Sender]

FWIW the Strad has had two other articles on the subject. One within the last month or two, which partly summarizes some of the other ideas. Another was I think by Seifert and Grubbaugh, maybe last year.

[CT Dolan]

As I understand it, the ventral pin exists only in the back plate (and is generally, if not always, in the thickest part of the plate). Does the back plate balance about this point? I am sure it has been postulated before that perhaps this point was used in such a manner, but regardless of whether or not this is the case I am curious to know if the plate does exhibit a certain distribution of mass about the ventral pin (that is, for a back plate free of the remaining assembly).

[Andres Sender]

The 'balance' idea is brought up on the last page of the old "Curtate Cycloid" thread at Maestronet. The whole thread is a perfect example of the sort of background reading that anyone with serious interest in these issues would benefit from.

Oh, and per Michael no, the pins don't correspond to the balance points.

[Oded Kishony]

Andres,

Could you give a one sentence synopsis of the various hypotheses?

I don't get the Strad, it's too annoying

Thanks,
Oded

[Andres Sender]

Oded--I'll give it a shot later tonight.

[Michael Darnton]

I don't have any ventral pin theories, but an acquaintance of mine believes that they plugged a flagpole thingy in there for some tuning purpose. Sound far-fetched to me, but you can add it to the list.

[Andres Sender]

According to Yann Poulain in his article in the current Strad magazine, these are some of the theories which have been put forward about the ventral pin:

-It was a result of the use of a compass used to lay out graduation patterns of concentric circles. (This idea is elegantly explored by Seifert and Grubaugh in their article in the February 2006 issue of The Strad.)

-It was a mark left by a clamping tool at the highest point of the long arch.

-It was an anchor point for a central soundpost on 15th-century instruments (Christian Rault in the journal Pastel).

Poulain's own vision is that the hole is the remains of a hole drilled (with a spur or similar bit) to receive a bench dog which, in combination with two wooden 'pins' also inserted in the carving board, holds the back firm during carving.

The idea of the hole being for a bench dog has appeared before, at the moment I don't recall where--was it a Hargrave idea and/or something that appeared in Ben Ruth's articles on recreating Cremonese construction methods? I believe in that earlier version the plate is rotated on the bench dog and clamped in various positions using a bench hook or similar.

Poulain makes reference to "Stradivari's arching board" and says that it has a hole in it, and wonders whether Stradivari may have used a similar method to the Amati tradition, only changed in some ways to avoid leaving the hole. There is a hole in a hollowing cradle in the Stradivari collection, I wonder if this is what Poulain means?

It's fun to wonder whether the hole in the arching cradle has some relationship to the Amati-tradition pin, but the simplest explanation is that it relates to a way of clamping the cradle to the bench--particularly since the hole has a rectangular recess at the top, implying it was either intended for some sort of hook, or that a separate piece was intended to be placed in the recess above a bench dog or the like.

Seifert and Grubaugh mention two other explanations in circulation, without directly commenting on them. One is the 'balance point' idea previously mentioned here, and the other is "a way to suspend the plate for tuning while sawing on the edge with a bow".

[Oded Kishony]

Thanks Andres.

I don't see anything new or especially convincing here. The carving screw wins the 'simplest explanations' test.

Oded

[Michael Darnton]

I am suddenly reminded of a letter in STRAD magazin about 8-10 yers ago from a guy named Michael Darnton, nothing that the position of the pin in the back of del Gesus is located about the inverse of the balance point of the tops. It went virtually unnoticed at the time, I think.

[violinarius]

[Jack H.]

I feel stupid for asking, but what the heck is a ventral pin???

[Andres Sender]

Pin usually found filling the small conical hole going from the inside toward the outside in the middle of the back on Amati-school violins.

[CT Dolan]

"I am suddenly reminded of a letter in STRAD magazin about 8-10 yers ago from a guy named Michael Darnton, nothing that the position of the pin in the back of del Gesus is located about the inverse of the balance point of the tops. It went virtually unnoticed at the time, I think."

Michael, for those of us who are less informed, please explain what you mean by the above, namely "the position of the pin in the back of del Gesus is located about the inverse of the balance point of the tops." What does this mean? I can also hardly believe such a statement would have gone virtually unnoticed as it seems to me to be a very important, and therefore non-trivial bit of information. Maybe it was the underlined that threw them off the trail!